• PS3 Hacks , 18.07.2010

    Those of us, looking forward to 1080p 3D games will be disappointed, as it appears we wont be getting them, games that are natively 1080p, will have a downscaled 3D version, this problem isnt a hardware limitation, it is due to Sony’s guidelines on 3D games.

    Sony representative Simon Benson confirmed this during the Develop conference, here is a quote of what he said:

    Sony’s Simon Benson explained during a demo of the technology at the conference. While the PS3 is capable of displaying a 1080p 3D image — indeed, it will support 3D Blu-Ray movies at that resolution later this year — Benson said upping the resolution comes at the expense of the silky-smooth 60 frames per second available at 720p (Blu-Ray movies run at 24 frames per second). Benson said that a “more cinematic game” might be well-suited for the lower frame rate and higher resolution, but that Sony’s current guidelines for 3D games wouldn’t allow for such a setting.

    The effects of this policy are probably unnoticeable to most gamers. Benson said that, in 3D, even trained computer graphics artists could barely tell the difference between the resolutions.

    Source Of Quote

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    Discuss in Forums (26)


  • 26 Comments

    1. SuperDre
      07-18-2010
      11:53 AM
      1

      BS, it's a hardware limitation... If you can get a game to run at at least 60fps on 1080p sony is more than happy, but getting 3D running at 60fps at 1080p is just too much for the PS3 which already has trouble running a regular game at 1080p.

    2. cruisx
      07-18-2010
      05:54 PM
      2

      Professor SuperDre, which University do you teach at? You must have a PhD to make assumptions like that. And its not like your gonna be playing 3d games all the time, so do sent really matter. Not much difference in games when it comes to 1080p and 720p ( In most titles anyway you wouldn't really notice )

    3. GregoryRasputin
      07-18-2010
      05:57 PM
      3

      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      which already has trouble running a regular game at 1080p.

      My PS3 doesn't have any trouble running 1080p games.

    4. splodger15
      07-18-2010
      07:37 PM
      4

      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      which already has trouble running a regular game at 1080p.
      Mine doesn't , If you don't have a 1080P tv it won't run the game in 1080P format.

    5. Qraze1
      07-18-2010
      08:56 PM
      5

      mine works fine.
      i played genesis and nes on black and white tv's and didn't complain.
      if 3d gaming is good 3d, maybe i get new 3d tv for 3d gaming in 3d living room.
      new ps3 disgeia will be 3d so.................................................4D!

    6. SuperDre
      07-19-2010
      03:02 AM
      6

      Originally Posted by cruisx
      Professor SuperDre, which University do you teach at? You must have a PhD to make assumptions like that. And its not like your gonna be playing 3d games all the time, so do sent really matter. Not much difference in games when it comes to 1080p and 720p ( In most titles anyway you wouldn't really notice )
      I'm sorry but the difference between REAL 1080p and 720p is just as much difference as between SD and 720p.. upscaling 720p to 1080p is just like upscaling SD to 720p, it looks good enough, but seeing it native resolution is a big BIG difference (at least when you've got a decend sized tv (40" and upward))..
      What do YOU call it if a console can't run something natively at 1080p at 60fps because it isn't powerfull enough to handle that resolution at that framerate? in my book you call that a hardware limitation, nothing more, nothing less.. So if that makes me a professor to be able to come to such a conclusion, than I'm really sad for you.

      Originally Posted by GregoryRasputin
      My PS3 doesn't have any trouble running 1080p games.
      Show me which games run in REAL 1080p, almost every PS3 games runs natively on 720p (or even less) and then being upscaled to 1080p (only a couple of PSN-games which haven't got a lof of objects/complexity run in 1080p natively (which doesn't mean they aren't just as fun as a game which does have so much complexity)).
      The PS3 just isn't powerfull enough to run any game at real 1080p resolution (just like the xbox 360 also isn't) at least not with all the splendor/objects and at 60fps.. Games like killzone 2, god of war 3 and uncharted 2 are all running at 720p native resolution and are being upscaled to 1080p..

    7. GregoryRasputin
      07-19-2010
      05:34 AM
      7

      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      Show me which games run in REAL 1080p.
      Warhawk
      Wipeout HD
      Wolf of the Battlefield: Commando 3
      Virtua Fighter 5
      Virtua Tennis 3

    8. SuperDre
      07-19-2010
      05:51 AM
      8

      Originally Posted by GregoryRasputin
      Warhawk
      Wipeout HD
      Wolf of the Battlefield: Commando 3
      Virtua Fighter 5
      Virtua Tennis 3
      WarHawk and Virtua Fighter 5 both run 720p native resolution and are upscaled to 1080p.. the other 3 are correct..

    9. GregoryRasputin
      07-19-2010
      06:38 AM
      9

      I may have been wrong about Warhawk and Virtua Fighter, but the fact remains, that some very good games run at 1080p, like:
      GT5 Prologue
      Ridge Racer 7
      GT5 will also run natively at 1080p, when it is released.

      Im sure i could find more, but i don't need too, i have already proven that some great games run without any problems at 1080p.

      EDIT:
      Red Dead Redemption, is another game that runs at 1080p natively.

    10. SuperDre
      07-19-2010
      12:23 PM
      10

      Originally Posted by GregoryRasputin
      EDIT:
      Red Dead Redemption, is another game that runs at 1080p natively.
      Uhmm, hell no.. RDR doesn't even run at 720p natively, but only 640p (even though it runs on xbox360 at 720p natively), there was a lot of comments by reviewers on that.. So where you got your claim that it does run 1080p is beyond me...

    11. GregoryRasputin
      07-19-2010
      02:04 PM
      11

      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      Uhmm, hell no.. RDR doesn't even run at 720p natively, but only 640p (even though it runs on xbox360 at 720p natively), there was a lot of comments by reviewers on that.. So where you got your claim that it does run 1080p is beyond me...

      You know what is beyond me, is that fact you keep moaning about what i may be wrong about, but fail to have the understanding that in fact you are wrong, i have mentioned GT5 a graphically intensive game and Ridge Racer, which both run flawlessly natively at 1080p, but you have by passed those two games and went too RDR.

      Oh here is where i base my claim that RDR is 1080p:

    12. madshaun1984
      07-19-2010
      02:48 PM
      12

      SuperDre if the ps3 struggled to cope with 1080p then sony would of removed the option to do so in a fw update, you seem to under estimate the power of the architecture, if I were you I would read up on the ps3's specs a bit more before commenting again, as you are beginning to make yourself look a little (lets say this politly) "silly".

    13. xenno
      07-19-2010
      04:52 PM
      13

      well those who haven't updated yet to FW 3.40 is certainly missing something
      but I don't think it's worth it cause in the end you will have to buy a 3Dtv to get all the benefits from the true 3d experience also keep in mind that those tv's aren't cheap the will cost you a fortune! so go a head and update!

    14. SuperDre
      07-19-2010
      06:09 PM
      14

      Originally Posted by GregoryRasputin
      You know what is beyond me, is that fact you keep moaning about what i may be wrong about, but fail to have the understanding that in fact you are wrong, i have mentioned GT5 a graphically intensive game and Ridge Racer, which both run flawlessly natively at 1080p, but you have by passed those two games and went too RDR.

      Oh here is where i base my claim that RDR is 1080p:

      well, the information on the PS site is wrong (never trust marketing/adverts).. And yes you're right about RR7 being a game that runs at 1080p, but if you read up on RR7 you know that it uses lowresolution textures and low poly models and severely drops framerate if the screen get's full (like in online racing), once you put the game in 720p mode it runs perfectly smooth without dropping any frames and responds much better as in 1080p.. (RR7 is actually a game I also own, but I only play all games at 720p since I don't have a projector which is 1080p capable (My current one is a good one (and was very expensive), and I'm waiting for a 1080p LED-projector))
      What I've seen from the GT5 prologue and racing academy is also a game that isn't high only polycount and high resolution textures, BUT, that ofcourse is only my perception as the game still really isn't released and reviews will have to tell the real story.. but also as much much more games, it doesn't run at 1920x1080p, but at 1280x1080p and is stretched in width..

      But I didn't say the PS3 isn't capable of running 1920x1080p games, the games it can run in that real resolution aren't games that have high polycounts and won't be heavy on objects.. A game like killzone won't be possible at such high resolutions.. But simple 3D puzzle games, or games like Boomblox (on the wii) will run perfectly in 1080p..

    15. orangpelupa
      07-20-2010
      07:12 AM
      15

      @superdre
      thanks, your posts will clear up the missunderstanding on forum membersabout native resolution / upscaled / bullshot.

      i agree with you that ps3 hardware is limited. so it need to sacrifice things to do 3D.

      btw about upsampling, some look good. some look bad.
      rdr in psn is very blurry. maybeits too low res to be upscaled. but the upscaled 1080p on gt5p look good. seems like the horizontal scalong is working good or just becase gt5p have kind of almost 1080p res.

    16. GregoryRasputin
      07-20-2010
      11:14 AM
      16

      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      Uhmm, hell no.. RDR doesn't even run at 720p natively, but only 640p (even though it runs on xbox360 at 720p natively), there was a lot of comments by reviewers on that.. So where you got your claim that it does run 1080p is beyond me...
      I do agree mostly with what you say, apart from the PS3 struggling to run 1080p, anyhow, i bought RDR today for the Xbox 360, on the case it sates its resolutions are 720p, 1080i and 1080p.

    17. orangpelupa
      07-21-2010
      12:17 AM
      17

      @gregory

      I do agree mostly with what you say, apart from the PS3 struggling to run 1080p,
      from what i read from superdre's post. What he mean by "PS3 struggling to run 1080p" is this "PS3 struggling to run game at real 1080p resolution, without upscaling".

      anyhow, i bought RDR today for the Xbox 360, on the case it sates its resolutions are 720p, 1080i and 1080p.
      on Xbox 360, the 1080i and 1080p is only upscaled from 720p.

      all xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p.
      but not all xbox 360 games can run in real 1080p resolution. (usually 720p and lower)

    18. KillerBug
      07-21-2010
      05:06 AM
      18

      This really gets me...

      The resolution is limited to 720P, and 720P 3D will work with a HDMI 1.3 device, such as the millions of 3D capable TVs and monitors that were sold even before we saw those "3D Ready" stickers show up. Not all screens will work, but the ones with high enough refresh rates can do 3D; both of my screens will do 3D @ 720P...and neither was sold as "3D Ready".

      However, Sony has limited 3D output from the PS3 to HDMI 1.4 devices! Yes, only HDMI 1.4 can handle 3D 1080P...but if you are not even offering 1080P, why would you require a device with such capabilities?

      The answer is easy; the same reason we are seeing "3D TV" in the first place...TV sales. It is very hard to sell a 32" 1080P to someone who already owns a 32" 1080P TV. If you add something new (like 3D), then it makes the sale a lot easier. The only problem there is that if the person has a good TV, then they can do 3D already; they don't need to buy a new TV from you.

      This is very concerning. If they are willing to block their own TVs, while they are still under warranty, less than a year after sale, for no technical reason, what will stop them from doing it again? I mean, once a bunch of people go out and replace their 1.3 TVs with 1.4 TVs, what will stop Sony from blocking 1080P 3D from working with 1.4 devices? I suspect that it won't be long before we see HDMI 1.5, and while it will not even be usable with the PS3, it will be required to display the 1080P 3D that 1.4 devices support.

      If you want 3D, and you are desperate enough to buy a new TV to replace your 3D capable TV with a "3D Ready" TV, DO NOT BUY A SONY TV; they have repeatedly shown that they cannot be trusted, and that they will cut off support for your new TV before the 1-year warranty is over. Even if this were not the case, buying TVs from them would only encourage them to do this again in the future...the near future, it would seem. Even if your current TV isn't even 3D capable, don't buy a Sony TV to replace it; there are plenty of TV manufacturers out there...and Sony is the only brand that has intentionally blocked their own devices (as well as devices made by others).

      BTW...I am not sure if any existing Sony TVs were capable of 3D...usually Sony quality is terrible, with every corner cut...so it would hardly surprise me if sony never made a single good HDTV.

    19. SuperDre
      07-21-2010
      08:03 AM
      19

      Originally Posted by KillerBug
      The resolution is limited to 720P, and 720P 3D will work with a HDMI 1.3 device, such as the millions of 3D capable TVs and monitors that were sold even before we saw those "3D Ready" stickers show up. Not all screens will work, but the ones with high enough refresh rates can do 3D; both of my screens will do 3D @ 720P...and neither was sold as "3D Ready".

      However, Sony has limited 3D output from the PS3 to HDMI 1.4 devices! Yes, only HDMI 1.4 can handle 3D 1080P...but if you are not even offering 1080P, why would you require a device with such capabilities?
      Because you have a TV that has more than 120Hz, doesn't mean it is capable of showing the current 3D format (because that's where the catch is, not the refreshrate). Your TV has to split/process the signal so it can show the 3D content. I guess a firmware update could fix that, but it all depends on the hardware that is inside the tv.. Also a 3D-ready TV isn't forced to use the HDMI 1.4 specs (there are 3D-ready TV's out there that just have 1.3), but if you are using the HDMI 1.4 specs as a TV you are forced to support the framepackaging format which requires 2 times the bandwidth as regular 2D 1080p content (1.3 just can't handle the 1080p bandwidth with that format).

      BUT, looking around on the net I can't find anywhere that the PS3 will only show 3D to a 1.4 device..

    20. orangpelupa
      07-21-2010
      08:18 AM
      20

      ^^ the format war in 3D is really inconvinience for consumer
      there format war for 3d input format, and format to display 3D (samsung active shutter 3d glasses cant be used on sony vice versa).

      but on Sony ps3's side, sony should be able to support all kinds of 3d format to be outputted from PS3 to the disiplay. Just like nvidia on PC. as long as have monitor with high refresh rate. The 3D can be transfered to the Monitor, then being read by the nvidia glasses.

      or just like in the ATi cards, allow ps3 to use the old-method "blue/red" 3d. not good color quality but absolutely will work with many kinds of display and cheap plastic/paper 3d glasses.

    21. SuperDre
      07-21-2010
      09:20 AM
      21

      Originally Posted by orangpelupa
      ^^ the format war in 3D is really inconvinience for consumer
      there format war for 3d input format, and format to display 3D (samsung active shutter 3d glasses can be used on sony vice versa).

      but on Sony ps3's side, sony should be able to support all kinds of 3d format to be outputted from PS3 to the disiplay. Just like nvidia on PC. as long as have monitor with high refresh rate. The 3D can be transfered to the Monitor, then being read by the nvidia glasses.

      or just like in the ATi cards, allow ps3 to use the old-method "blue/red" 3d. not good color quality but absolutely will work with many kinds of display and cheap plastic/paper 3d glasses.
      Yep I agree completely, as 3D shutterglasses isn't even something new, it's very old.. But Sony will not do that ofcourse as they only care about selling more 3DTV's...

    22. KillerBug
      07-23-2010
      04:01 AM
      22

      I know my current HDMI 1.3 screens will work with 3D; they have both been confirmed working with the nVidia 3D kit. A trusted friend from Japan confirmed that his PS3 does not do 3D with a screen that works fine with the nVidia kit, and that the system gives an error stating that he needs HDMI 1.4. I actually didn't even ask him about this; I had asked him to buy a pair of glasses to ship to me...and he offered to sell me his glasses, as they were useless, but the store would not let him make a return on a non-broken item.

    23. MASTAcheeBURGA
      08-20-2010
      09:11 PM
      23

      3d on 720p dosnt sound that disapointing

    24. pig098
      08-22-2010
      02:54 AM
      24

      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      Yep I agree completely, as 3D shutterglasses isn't even something new, it's very old.. But Sony will not do that ofcourse as they only care about selling more 3DTV's...
      Lol sure w/e you say.

      and Sony doing this to sell 3DTV?? you make it sound like Sony is forcing us.

      And not to mention that LG, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer and etc are ALL making 3D TV.

      O wait they must be paying sony to push 3D on PS3 so they can sell 3DTV.

      come on grow up.... there is a huge market for 3D and making accurate stereoscopic images has improved and became economical.

      this is basic economics. they offer services cause there is DEMAND for it. its not the other way around.

      Not to mention that 3D tv is pretty cheap to make compared to making 2D tv of same spec.

    25. SuperDre
      08-22-2010
      01:09 PM
      25

      Originally Posted by pig098
      Lol sure w/e you say.

      and Sony doing this to sell 3DTV?? you make it sound like Sony is forcing us.

      And not to mention that LG, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer and etc are ALL making 3D TV.

      O wait they must be paying sony to push 3D on PS3 so they can sell 3DTV.

      come on grow up.... there is a huge market for 3D and making accurate stereoscopic images has improved and became economical.

      this is basic economics. they offer services cause there is DEMAND for it. its not the other way around.

      Not to mention that 3D tv is pretty cheap to make compared to making 2D tv of same spec.
      I was refering to the PS3 being able to output 1 kind of 3D and not other formats (next to the 1.4HDMI supported 3D formats), like the older shutterglass formats which where already in the market.. So supporting 3D on the PS3 will definitly sell more of their own 3D TV's, there are enough dumb people who will buy a new Sony 3DTV even if they already have a HDTV..

      (And now on to your original message which you edited later)
      Originally Posted by pig098
      Originally Posted by SuperDre
      BS, it's a hardware limitation... If you can get a game to run at at least 60fps on 1080p sony is more than happy, but getting 3D running at 60fps at 1080p is just too much for the PS3 which already has trouble running a regular game at 1080p.
      Lol you have no idea what you are talking about.
      I do know what I'm talking about, you must not forget for 3D it must generate 2 frames, and tell me how many games actually are already running in 1080p at 60fps natively without 3D.. When you see your tvset displaying '1080p' doesn't mean the game is also running in real 1080p mode.. The PS3 upscales it to 1080p itself.. hell real 1920x1080p isn't even supported by the few games that have '1080p', it's mostly 1280/800x1080p upscaled. And the reason for that is the PS3 just isn't powerfull enough to do real 1920x1080p with complex/lots objects. Most games are natively 720p (or even 640p) and then upscaled to 1080p..
      So if it already has trouble outputting 1 frame of real 1920x1080p you can imagine it really has trouble outputting 2 frames...
      Also the 720p 3D games will have a lesser graphical appearance as their 2D versions.. BUT the 3D versions give you another experience which makes you forget the differences..

    26. johnny_h
      08-24-2010
      03:37 AM
      26

      I'm in two minds about Sony's 3D implementation. One one hand, I own a 120hz "3D' HD projector and wish Sony would allow me to use it, but on the other, they're right about implementing a new specification for 3D. We needed one, badly. Companies don't know whether to use page flip or checker board for their 3D, and by making frame packing part of hdmi 1.4, all future 3D monitors/tvs will be compatible. The method of displaying the 3D images will be up to the device, but the input will always be 1, frame packing.

      So even though I got shafted..badly, alot of people who weren't early adopters wont be