• A few days ago, we posted here that representatives for Sony visited graf_chokolo’s home, this morning graf updated his blog to state that he has been forced to remove all PS3 related technical items from his blog, or face six months in prison, here is a quote from his blog:

    graf_chokolo says:
    April 18, 2011 at 9:19 am
    SONY forced us to remove all PS3 technical stuff from this blog guys. I wonder how did they manage to “convince” the judge to allow it. Our law system is practically “eating” from hands of SONY, very sad. Many guys are making money with USB dongles for PS3 and i’m not allowed to put MY PS3 into service mode, it’s hilarious.

    graf_chokolo says:
    April 18, 2011 at 9:29 am
    They claim that my OtherOS project supports piracy. I never had anything to do with piracy. Everyone knows it, make it clear to those judges who gave SONY those TROs against me. It would be interesting to know what kind of person those judges are and what they look like.

    graf_chokolo says:
    April 18, 2011 at 10:22 am
    Guys, i’m a tough guy and won’t give up without a fight. I’m ready to stake my life. So, you support me with money for LEGAL FIGHT and i stake my life.

    Source

    Thanks to DaveOMac for the news tip.

    Tags: , ,

    Discuss in Forums (100)


  • 100 Comments

    1. stuck?
      04-18-2011
      08:08 AM
      1

      Very interesting. There has to be something in there that sony does NOT want being made public.

      There's plenty of reason to go after other people and hardware makers that are only in it for piracy, yet they go after geohawt and graffer..

      Really stirring the pot.

    2. xxxRoccoSiffredixxx
      04-18-2011
      08:12 AM
      2

      i'm with you Graf... don't give up, be anonymous

    3. zaspan
      04-18-2011
      08:17 AM
      3

      Originally Posted by stuck?
      Very interesting. There has to be something in there that sony does NOT want being made public.

      There's plenty of reason to go after other people and hardware makers that are only in it for piracy, yet they go after geohawt and graffer..

      Really stirring the pot.

      Definetly.If they wanted to stop piracy they would go for the devs that are making the back-up managers and they would shut down the warez/torrent sites that distribute the backups.What are they hiding?Maybe some more stolen technology like the bd-drive or a exploit so large even they won't be able to patch it up.I guess only time will tell.Graf_balls of steel.I don't get it how can he go to jail?Isn't there some kind of probation for first time ofenders?

    4. psik
      04-18-2011
      08:20 AM
      4

      i am willing to help u pay dude..i am a student but my money is better worth spending fighting an improtant cause than on buying **** i dont need most of the time...i hope everyone is willing to help u 2 in bits or depending on their budget larger bits..I stand with your principles and completely understand what ur doing this..

    5. japsander
      04-18-2011
      08:23 AM
      5

      Graf needs remote secure access to a machine to carry on his work (if he is set on continuing)
      if he has no tools/code at his home and no logs of any work, what can they do? what can they prove to make a valid claim for a seizure or arrest?
      I think he needs to change name for a while at least. we will all still know where the good stuff comes from no matter what the name is.

    6. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      08:25 AM
      6

      This is starting to get ridiculous now, everytime a dev even thinks about tinkering with their system Sony is screaming "PIRATE" and points their boney finger. They have now come to using scare tactics stating really "hey if you even think about mucking up our flawless system your going to jail!" .. I bet they have even got a big burley neo-nazi skin head in some jail somewhere on retainer so if any dev does press their luck and then gets snt down, they will be given a "hot-dog" to chew on before they even reach their cell!

      I just love the way Sony are playing the part of the helpless victim in all this. They strut about acting like they haven't done anything wrong when their halo slipped a long time ago.

    7. Annelies
      04-18-2011
      08:27 AM
      7

      Originally Posted by stuck?
      Very interesting. There has to be something in there that sony does NOT want being made public.

      There's plenty of reason to go after other people and hardware makers that are only in it for piracy, yet they go after geohawt and graffer..

      Really stirring the pot.
      I have share mixed emotions on the subject.

      If Sony is indeed hiding something big in the PS3, I don't want it released. As much as I am against Sony when it comes to suing our Dev's, I don't want Sony to be exploited and sued themselves. Apart of this reason is because I grew up with Sony, so one could say I'm a little emotionally attached to them. I want to see a PS4 released and I'd hate to see Sony drop out of the console race any time soon because they lost too much money in a lawsuit regarding the PS3.

      I ultimately want to see homebrew developers and Sony co-existing without any problems. As long as homebrew developers don't try to exploit the crap out of Sony, and as long as Sony stops suing our Dev's, then I'm fine.

    8. Sexbox
      04-18-2011
      08:29 AM
      8

      Geohot has said before that Sony are hiding something really big with all this and Other O/S, they really do not want the system further compromised.

      Geohot has indicated whether directly or indirectly (in the past mostly) that Sony can't fix the flaw but if exposed would screw them big time.

      What bothers me is Geohot knows more about the inns & outs than he let on before Sony's gestapo came after him.

      Graf needs to comply, at least publicly...

      He needs to follow the footsteps of C4eva & keep on the down low.

    9. chaosity
      04-18-2011
      08:30 AM
      9

      I admire your principles and thank you for all your input in the scene, but the way this is panning out I honestly dont see you coming out any other way but f***ed.

      Though this seems like a sad approach I'd personally say bite the Sony bullet and do as they ask. People here are all 'three cheers for Graf!!' but theyre not you and theyre not facing a life with a heavy criminal record and possible imprisonment.

      Its sad to see Sony winning this odd war but we all know money will gain more victories than justice...this is why I suggest you do all you can to limit the damage youll recieve. I understand your morals make this hard for you but think of the long term affects that could possibly damage your future. Sony seem to be using bigger punishment (threats at the moment I know) towards you then they did at Geo so I wouldnt assume youll walk away as unscathed as he apparently has.

      Whether to go the anonymous route and still release thats totally your call, noone can or should judge or sway you in that, but please just think of your future.

      Principles are a wonderful thing, but a lifelong criminal record for whatever prosecution Sony dream up could simply be more detrimental too you. I'm not saying to throw your principles away but too simply make sure theyre not pushing you into a stupid error.

    10. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      08:30 AM
      10

      Originally Posted by zaspan
      ...I don't get it how can he go to jail?Isn't there some kind of probation for first time ofenders?
      Correct me if I am wrong, but i guess that the Jail thing has to do with the TRO he was originally given. he broke it, he continued his work. So yes there would be some jail-time possibly given for breaking that court order?? I don't know.

      As for the first offense thing, Sony would push for their to be given some "hard-time" for 3 reasons. 1, they can buy it. 2, It keeps the dev away from the PS and a way from a computer and internet.. so whatever sony is hiding is kept safe for a little while longer. 3, if graf was convicted that would send a severe message/warning to any other dev's that are thinking about or are working on any exploits/OtherOS/piracy of the PS3 system.

    11. zeveroth
      04-18-2011
      08:34 AM
      11

      Last Week he was, F this and f that. Seems with this article he has decided to do as Sony wishes. He needs to upload to a file share like MU and let us keep his work alive.

    12. japsander
      04-18-2011
      08:37 AM
      12

      Originally Posted by zeveroth
      Last Week he was, F this and f that. Seems with this article he has decided to do as Sony wishes. He needs to upload to a file share like MU and let us keep his work alive.
      his work is already everywhere

    13. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      08:37 AM
      13

      Originally Posted by zeveroth
      Last Week he was, F this and f that. Seems with this article he has decided to do as Sony wishes. He needs to upload to a file share like MU and let us keep his work alive.
      Zeveroth, graf really couldn't upload his work (his TRO is one reason) & remember Sony has their beedy little eye on what he is doing constantly. But that didn't stop others doing it :D .. There are copies already flying about the net. Git-hacks, MU & I added it to Filesonic. His work is still out there alive and kicking.

    14. 2die4
      04-18-2011
      08:39 AM
      14

      he said he is willing to keep going aslong as people donate to his legal fund so he can fight sony lawyers

      he needs to get the media intrested if theirs a german version of consumer watchdog tv show start contacting them about sony also the local broadsheet news papers im sure theirs some political corruption involved here at the very least some judicial corruption

    15. bevve
      04-18-2011
      08:48 AM
      15

      i believe in you graf! make the system right again but dont get cought. i will support you all the way. if you are willing to go to the deepest! i know everyone is to. you are not alone! we need to get the system right!

    16. bertr2112
      04-18-2011
      08:49 AM
      16

      "The U.S. Air Force is using over 2,500 PS3 units linked together to conduct research on the future of supercomputing."

      "The U.S. Air Force has submitted a procurement request for 2,200 new PS3 units to supplement the 336 that are already employed at the Air Force Research Laboratory in Rome, NY."

      Found this online.Perhaps this is why SONY doesn't want the return of the 'OtherOs' feature.My thought is SONY doesn't want this to be repeated...if the 'OtherOs' feature is returned,then anybody and any country could build a supercomputer courtesy of SONY...which could be bad.

      This might be why SONY is hard after Graf...the issue isn't piracy.It's security and liability.It's protecting your contract with the Air Force Research Laboratory.

    17. Pockets69
      04-18-2011
      08:51 AM
      17

      that big secret sony is hiding on the ps3... umh... stolen copyrighted code? open source code that can't be used commercially and should be free?? i really don't know...
      But i wish they would go down hard, and that they won't release any other console, they don't deserve to be in this market! go after the dongle sellers, go after the people that upload games on websites, leave us alone.
      you will later understand all your mistakes...
      as for you Graff "Balls of Steel" Chokolo you should keep quiet, and only release your final work if you intend to do so... Most of the scene doesn't even deserve the work you are doing for them, but you still want to continue, you got our support and our donations.

    18. X3LL
      04-18-2011
      08:52 AM
      18

      F*ck sony....Sh!theads -.-

      Graf FTW

    19. bertr2112
      04-18-2011
      08:53 AM
      19

      When you check into when this contract was drawn up...you might find that is when SONY released the update to remove the 'OtherOs' feature.

      Hope this helps.

    20. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      09:02 AM
      20

      hmmmm... but Sony had a "contract" with its existing customers before it made one with USAF and I bet the amount of royaltys made from the US Air Force aint worth didderly compared how much they raked in from the general public and the combined Jo Blogs.

    21. scristopher
      04-18-2011
      09:05 AM
      21

      you kno im about sick of this -- almost get linux completely back and bam its ripped away again -- im about to just sell my ps3 and go buy a gaming pc and join the sony boycott for everything. I only wanted linux to use for work stuff on my tv so i can lean back on my couch and work w/ my wireless keyboard and mouse I can do just as well on a PC and play games too. Ive been penalised so many times for just wanting to use linux, cant play certain games and get on playstation store to redownload games i legally bought from them because i dont want to upgrade and I dont even have any pirated games! wtf!
      Ive got a HUGE stack of games that i bought from gamestop and 4 controllers and a pseye about 40 games in total and im about to just sell everything so i dont have to deal with this crap anymore. Im not complaining about the scene its cool but sonys just making it really hard for people that want to do legit stuff and actually buy new games w/o losing what i have now. ITS SUPPOSED TO DO EVERYTHING!!! lol

    22. zeveroth
      04-18-2011
      09:07 AM
      22

      Originally Posted by DaveOMac
      Zeveroth, graf really couldn't upload his work (his TRO is one reason) & remember Sony has their beedy little eye on what he is doing constantly. But that didn't stop others doing it :D .. There are copies already flying about the net. Git-hacks, MU & I added it to Filesonic. His work is still out there alive and kicking.
      Good to hear. I have all the space anyone needs to store the gifts. Should anyone need a extra storage space, hit me up.

    23. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      09:16 AM
      23

      Yep just checked the dukio git, all of grafs work has been removed from it. Bit weird as the bootOS/lv9patcher & ps3tools have been left up :-s OK Sony, so you don't mind us fiddling really just as long as it aint with OtherOS!! :chin scratching:

      If you want a copy you can get it from these alternative sites :D

      1. http://git-hacks.com/linux-ps3 - Githacks official repository

      or you can grab my zipped versions from:

      2. http://www.filesonic.com/file/638123624 - graf_clone.zip
      3. http://www.filesonic.com/file/638123824 - linux2.6.zip

    24. bigo93
      04-18-2011
      09:29 AM
      24

      PRIACY, PIRACY EVERYWHERE!

      Love how sony is using piracy as an excuse for everything, they used it with geohot as well. What piracy is there? In fact graf is undoing sony's act of piracy by putting linux back onto the ps3!

      I mean if sony win this case them does that imply all PCs are illegal? Cos everyone can install linux on their pc, so according to sony's logic, isnt that piracy?

      If sony closed all their stores on saturday due to anon's planned protests outside them, then shouldnt anon actually plan protests everyday? Though I hear noone actually turned up to any of the planned protests anyway :P

    25. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      09:33 AM
      25

      I had a bangin hangover on the 16th, I couldn't even make it to the bathroom without tripping over the dog or stumbling into a wall. What chance would I have had of getting to my local Sony Center? Anyhoo I usually am fashionably late to most things so I will get round to it.. maybe next Wednesday. lol

      I aint holding much hope for Anonymous at the mo, the DDoS attacks got the attention needed. The store bycott didn't work that well. So what is Anonymous's next move? Something big and bold... no its called 'Operation-PaperCut' where members are asked to fax/spam attack sony :facepalm:

      hmmmm.. hope its followed up by 'Operation-NameCalling' :shakes head in disbelief:

    26. ramuh13
      04-18-2011
      09:40 AM
      26

      I think graf should lay low from a while... be anonymous or change his name to Hotz_Geokolo or something...

      graf, hat's off to you! ..a man with principles --who's not afraid to fight and defend those principles... but you gotta approach this wisely man. You're not gonna be able to continue what you love doing behind bars. For all we know, Sony has their own Adjustment Bureau monitoring you.

      Live to fight another day... or result to guerrilla warfare..

      anyways, I can donate you some money for a new rig... the odds are better if you Anonymously break, make and share. Break the PS3, Make the tools and Share them to other devs.

      The money will just be wasted if used for defense in court. It'll be hard to fight a Filthy rich Whore-poration and a corrupt legal system

    27. japsander
      04-18-2011
      09:41 AM
      27

      Originally Posted by DaveOMac
      I had a bangin hangover on the 16th, I couldn't even make it to the bathroom without tripping over the dog or stumbling into a wall. What chance would I have had of getting to my local Sony Center? Anyhoo I usually am fashionably late to most things so I will get round to it.. maybe next Wednesday. lol

      I aint holding much hope for Anonymous at the mo, the DDoS attacks got the attention needed. The store bycott didn't work that well. So what is Anonymous's next move? Something big and bold... no its called 'Operation-PaperCut' where members are asked to fax/spam attack sony :facepalm:

      hmmmm.. hope its followed up by 'Operation-NameCalling' :shakes head in disbelief:
      anonymous should hurt Sony by helping devs. play protector instead of attacker for a change.

    28. Wolfie708
      04-18-2011
      09:43 AM
      28

      Originally Posted by japsander
      anonymous should hurt Sony by helping devs. play protector instead of attacker for a change.
      Doesn't give them the same buzz though does it?

    29. japsander
      04-18-2011
      09:46 AM
      29

      Originally Posted by Wolfie708
      Doesn't give them the same buzz though does it?
      yeah, that's the problem. instead of looking like the protectors of public interests and rights like they claim, they look more like football hooligans looking for a chance to riot. ego plays too big a part in modern day events.

    30. ramuh13
      04-18-2011
      09:53 AM
      30

      hey didn't the US Military purchased around 2200 PS3s to make a super computer cluster??? ...they made a better use of the console rather than the intended use of it.. that's basically what hacking is... so why don't you sue the US Military Sony???

    31. Annelies
      04-18-2011
      09:56 AM
      31

      Originally Posted by ramuh13
      hey didn't the US Military purchased around 2200 PS3s to make a super computer cluster??? ...they made a better use of the console rather than the intended use of it.. that's basically what hacking is... so why don't you sue the US Military Sony???
      They don't want the US Government involved with their affairs, yo. They'd lose for sure on the bomb-biggity.


      Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

    32. DaveOMac
      04-18-2011
      09:59 AM
      32

      They can't sue as they fear jack nicholson!!

      YouTube - Classic Movie Line #15

    33. KillerBug
      04-18-2011
      10:00 AM
      33

      Anyone else remember when the launch models were delayed because of some kind of military technology that was supposedly in the system? I wonder if they just covered it with firmware and then launched illegally, rather than doing an actual redesign that would have been far more expensive...if this is the case, then exposure of these events could lead to Sony getting in a lot of trouble with several governments.

      ...either that, or sony realizes that Graf's work is 100% legal and could lead to PS3 jailbreaking getting the same legal status as iPhone jailbreaking...and they can't have that!

      I am half tempted to setup a system for him...I have a 30Mbps upsteam; it is more than enough for remote control.

    34. levendi2nv
      04-18-2011
      10:03 AM
      34

      they went after graf and geohot because they are 2 of the smartest in the scene who would of in future torn the ps3 piece by piece down.. the cant go after math because he has had little involvement nothing sufficient enough to sue over

    35. pimpspter
      04-18-2011
      10:04 AM
      35

      Good grief this man has guts......

      A legal battle is needed to establish beyond all doubt our ownership of that which we purchase.....so much of what happens here seems an utter traversty of justice - how on earth do Sony go obtaining concessions from court benches in the way they do?


      It reeks of corruption and bias of the judicial system against the people in favour of corporate interests.

      Something needs done about Sony. I would suggest that we all get in touch with our local members of parliament/ members of the European parliament, members of the Scottish parliament, senator or whatever they call your local political representative in your area and state the case.


      Furthermore complaints need lodged with all relevant ombudsmen and with BBC Watchdog....

      No company out there should be allowed to trample on their people like this. If the judicial system somehow permits this then the system needs changed. This is utterly outrageous to the point that I've even wondered about bribary and corruption.

    36. OoZic
      04-18-2011
      10:21 AM
      36

      Recently a German judge ruled about small letters in a contract in this way:

      "Someone can understand the words in a poem, that doesn't say he understands the poem..." or something like that. It was in an electrical/financial case according to a lawyer in a Dutch TV show. (recorded it)
      The same thing can be said about Sony's EULA and ToS.

      Graf, overthinking Sony's reactions from the last few days I think you are to close to Sony's holy grale with installing Linux on the internal HD. They kept very quiet before that. You will always have my moral support and as soon as it is the end of the month I'll send some more money.

      About the jailtime I have split thoughts. I really don't want to see anyone going to jail for "hacking" a console, but this is not only about "hacking" but also about our rights as consumers. Every Fat PS3 user has paid for OtherOS so has rights on OtherOS.

      I can understand the way how you think, for myself I would have the same thinking "screw them. I won't bow for anyone, no matter how much they hurt me and no matter whom they think they are". But this is about freedom and family. Both very important and from jail you can do nothing for yourself, your family/friends and the PS3 OtherOS++ scene.

      If you choose to risk jail time I will also try to support you in any way. The Anonymous protest last weekend didn't interest me much but if you go to jail I will demonstrate, if possible in front of the prison you are in. I live at the Dutch/German border so it won't take that much time to overcome there.

      Justice has no time for real criminals like bankers who made big money and big bonuses while stealing from their customers and the government but they do have time to help a billion dollar company to protect an electronic device. Welcome at this world anno 2011 everybody.

      Is using your tools and kernel and RE on an original Fat OFW 3.15 with OtherOS also forbidden?

      I wish you good luck in your choice Graf. No matter which choice you make I will have the utmost respect for it

      Now let's see how far my FTP program is copying the contents from my PS3 internal to my PC. Need a 40 GB Vflash

    37. japsander
      04-18-2011
      10:25 AM
      37

      http://theynfvgbpodcast.wordpress.co...suprise-there/

      Sony isn't a stranger to bribery

    38. Atomsk
      04-18-2011
      10:40 AM
      38

      This is such bull****! I'd love to sit in on that court and watch those ******* lawyers explain how OtherOS supports piracy! Freakin joke of a judicial system now in days!

    39. zeveroth
      04-18-2011
      10:53 AM
      39

      My bad guy

    40. LuckySnake
      04-18-2011
      11:06 AM
      40

      This is bad news. Why doesn't Graf conceal his identity a little more to stop them from repeatedly going after him? Am I missing something? Or is it because it's Germany and RE laws are relaxed so they don't care to hide their identities as much?

    41. Da ToxicFox
      04-18-2011
      11:20 AM
      41

      I think Sony is telling the truth they fear that Linux will come to show they pirated some type of hardware or software. From how much they're fighting I think they did something that could ruin Sony forever. This is causing me to really want to know what they're trying to hide.....


      I would be worried about what Sony is doing behind closed doors though. If they're paying off the judge then Graf need to find out or request a new judge to hear the case. Hiring a investigator might be of some help but I speak solely from my knowledge of laws from where I'm from.

      Graf its a noble thing your doing, stupid but noble. Not many people out there would be willing to stand up against Sony and I wish you the best of luck.

    42. japsander
      04-18-2011
      11:30 AM
      42

      a lot of it must be down to the contract they held with IBM regarding the use of the CELL.
      obviously the contract would have been made for the use to be for "private" and "personal" use by the end user. the DOD and university clusters would not count as either of those but i recall no part in the EULA that we read that states this in regard to linux as linux was not a part of what they provided to us and therefore could not control it. they provided the bootloader, not the OS.

      so while we the end user were actually in the guidelines set by sony, they in fact would be in breech of contract and likely to be forced to pay penalties.

      remember sonys stupid idea that a pirated game is a lost sale? what happens when people cluster the ps3's? how many lost sales would IBM be faced with?

      its just a theory of mine but pair this theory with the fact that some of the ps3 code falls under GPL, should the core of the ps3 be found to be GPL, who can tell us what we can/cant do with the machine?

    43. chemixal
      04-18-2011
      11:33 AM
      43

      I did not support George Hotz but I will support graf, because I understand why he's doing this.

      I think there's a scam about graf, can someone give the right url to donate ?

    44. OoZic
      04-18-2011
      11:38 AM
      44

      update from Graf his Blog:

      graf_chokolo says:
      April 18, 2011 at 3:03 pm
      Guys, i didn�t violate the first TRO. Read it carefully, i was not allowed to publish games (or something that has to do with games), HV bible didn�t contain any games. SONY�s lawyer claimed that OtherOS is a game.
      Linux is open source and can never be a game but is an Operating System Sony !!

    45. pimpspter
      04-18-2011
      11:43 AM
      45

      Originally Posted by japsander
      http://theynfvgbpodcast.wordpress.co...suprise-there/

      Sony isn't a stranger to bribery
      Unsurprising really given this crowds recent record isn't it?

      I'm amazed just how far Sony has fallen from grace in my eyes since Geohotz first started making progress into hacking through OtherOS.

      Taking away advertised features from the console?? Should this not register the sale of the console illegal under the Sale of Goods Act (in the UK) as it is no longer "fit for the purpose for which it was sold", does this not also constitute false advertising???

      Taking Geohotz to court for his reverse engineering despite the fact that he has a right enshrined in law to reverse engineer things for the purpose of security????

      Arguing that the release of the master key was illegal when in reality it only requires us to use trivial maths on numbers we can easily get access to on the device we own? I'm sorry sony - you're entitled to lock the console before giving it to us but if your actual cryptography sucks to the point that it's childsplay (when one knows how - and hats off to those that did it) to crack it due to basic cryptographic errors you can't go complaining to anyone other than yourself when people open that "lock" - sorry but they own the locked console.

      And now all this buisiness with Graf - he legitmately purchased his PS3 to be able to run bluerays play on PSN *and* Run Linux - you sold it to him for those purposes - yet after you removed POINT OF SALE functions from the console (and there was no way of maintaining all of those functions - something had to be lost) you attempt to silence his freedom of speech, have his private bought and paid for technology confiscated from him twice and take him to court leaving him threatened with jail time and a criminal record .....simply for trying to regain functions he has already paid for but which you took away from him?


      I used to repect Sony because:

      1. They allowed people to run linux (and allowing open source development :D)
      2. They didn't attempt to keep a monopolistic stranglehold on peripherals (controllers, keyboards, bluetooth headsets etc)
      3. They had good customer service.


      Now:

      1. No linux....and constant attempts to take "open source" projects off the net.
      2. Many 3rd party peripherals have been blocked!
      3. They sue their customers left right and centre!!


      I can forgive them a little bit for the dongles - that was a little more piracy focused (although even then there's the argument of backups.....but lets face it there are a lot of people who fly the joly roger in such things)....Even though there clearly were legit uses and no sony code was contained in the device...meaning that the court verdicts here were a joke as well....

      And somehow (���$$$���) the courts seem to rule on their side????

      This is not "Justice" this " Just is"

    46. arishay
      04-18-2011
      11:46 AM
      46

      What most of you don't realize or possibly have missed is that there is nothing secret that Sony is hiding. The reason they are targeting certain dev's is because otherOS support *MUST* be removed due to the partnership they have with IBM. The blade servers IBM markets has their own broadband cell technology but unfortunately they lose business because many consumers figured out the PS3 is cheaper by a huge margin--thus they utilize the console. It's not the consumers fault here...it's Sony. IBM has warned Sony about this exploit and it's costing IBM sales in blade servers. If Sony wants to keep producing the PS3, they have to comply and remove the OtherOS which was allowing people like you and me to create clusters for cheaper than IBM solutions. Obviously with the airforce being only one customer, that large of a purchase from a government entity burned IBM a little, and that is why you all saw the removal of otherOS around the time the contract was created with Sony. Sony will only target people who continue to give access to the otherOS feature through modified firmware. They will keep pushing new firmware updates in the meantime to thwart people who already use a hacked otherOS by limiting game play and PSN access in exchange.

      Sony doesn't directly want pirating on their system so they will pick the greater of two evils. Attack the firmware/otherOS developers and handicap funtionality of already hacked systems. That's all they can legally do.

      People making homebrew software like Mulitiman aren't directly in Sony's crosshairs just yet because they need to protect their investment, by complying with IBM.

    47. budsta
      04-18-2011
      11:47 AM
      47

      So they can threaten jail without even going through the courts... I don't think so.

    48. Rax909
      04-18-2011
      11:48 AM
      48

      I feel sorry for him. Sony has nothing better to do then abuse us and our devs. And just like you said Bud, threatening Jail without courts or even proof of anything. Not to mention its about a Video Game system...the very fact this is happening just throws all logic to the wind.

    49. marty370
      04-18-2011
      11:59 AM
      49

      Your lucky it was only 6 months.

      What your doing is illegal. Reverse engineering is illegal.
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.

    50. pimpspter
      04-18-2011
      12:01 PM
      50

      Originally Posted by arishay
      What most of you don't realize or possibly have missed is that there is nothing secret that Sony is hiding. The reason they are targeting certain dev's is because otherOS support *MUST* be removed due to the partnership they have with IBM. The blade servers IBM markets has their own broadband cell technology but unfortunately they lose business because many consumers figured out the PS3 is cheaper by a huge margin--thus they utilize the console. It's not the consumers fault here...it's Sony. IBM has warned Sony about this exploit and it's costing IBM sales in blade servers. If Sony wants to keep producing the PS3, they have to comply and remove the OtherOS which was allowing people like you and me to create clusters for cheaper than IBM solutions. Obviously with the airforce being only one customer, that large of a purchase from a government entity burned IBM a little, and that is why you all saw the removal of otherOS around the time the contract was created with Sony. Sony will only target people who continue to give access to the otherOS feature through modified firmware. They will keep pushing new firmware updates in the meantime to thwart people who already use a hacked otherOS by limiting game play and PSN access in exchange.

      Sony doesn't directly want pirating on their system so they will pick the greater of two evils. Attack the firmware/otherOS developers and handicap funtionality of already hacked systems. That's all they can legally do.

      People making homebrew software like Mulitiman aren't directly in Sony's crosshairs just yet because they need to protect their investment, by complying with IBM.
      But IBM's rights in the matter should extend only to what sony themselves enable. They have no rights as regards the community. We own those cell processors and it's our right to use them for whatever we wish. Sony doesn't have to help us get more out of them (but certainly have no right to reduce our ability to use it below the level at which it was advertised and sold). If IBMs pricing policy isn't comercially competative in relation to the other options then they need to rethink their price point. If they still can't afford to offer that product for sale then they should withdraw it. If they lose money over all in a comercial venture that's very sad for them but it's a FACT OF BUSINESS LIFE. Sorry to say it but that's just how business works.

    51. japsander
      04-18-2011
      12:05 PM
      51

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Your lucky it was only 6 months.

      What your doing is illegal. Reverse engineering is illegal.
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.
      yeah right lol, you try getting the raw power of the cell cpu out of a standard pc cpu

      also what would you say if you had a backwards compatible ps3 with many ps2 games and sony decided to remove that function?

      some of us payed for the ability to run linux and we will be ****ed if we will take it up the ass for wanting what we payed for.

    52. Annelies
      04-18-2011
      12:09 PM
      52

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.
      It's called personal preference. If someone wants to use their PS3 for Linux, then let it be. I don't see what your problem is.

    53. Wolfie708
      04-18-2011
      12:12 PM
      53

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Your lucky it was only 6 months.

      What your doing is illegal. Reverse engineering is illegal.
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.
      It isn't illegal actually.

      We are allowed and always have been allowed to disect any piece of kit we own to the last teensy weensy bit. It is what we do with it then that can be illegal.

    54. OoZic
      04-18-2011
      12:17 PM
      54

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Your lucky it was only 6 months.

      What your doing is illegal. Reverse engineering is illegal.
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.
      Sony should have given every Fat PS3 owner a Linux computer/laptop for compensation. SONY DID NEVER COMPENSATE THE REMOVAL !!

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------

      If OtherOS is a game..... how many OtherOS trophies do you have?
      If OtherOS is a game..... it is the first PS3 game that can run without GameOS !!

    55. Wolfie708
      04-18-2011
      12:19 PM
      55

      Originally Posted by OoZic
      Sony should have given every Fat PS3 owner a Linux computer/laptop for compensation. SONY DID NEVER COMPENSATE THE REMOVAL !!

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------

      If OtherOS is a game..... how many OtherOS trophies do you have?
      They never will either. cutting through all the laws and rules it boils down to one thing really....

      Corruption always favours the one with the most money.

    56. scristopher
      04-18-2011
      12:20 PM
      56

      if anyone wants to buy a fat ps3 w/ 40 games & 4 controllers 1tb internal drive PM me - i just give up

    57. pimpspter
      04-18-2011
      12:24 PM
      57

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Your lucky it was only 6 months.

      What your doing is illegal. Reverse engineering is illegal.
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.

      You're making some bold and sweeping statements there without telling us:

      1. Why you should be an authority
      2. Citing references for the points you make
      3. Seemingly recognising that this changes from juristiction to juristiction.


      I'm no authority. I don't pretend to be. Here is what wikipedia has to say on reverse engineering's legality:

      Originally Posted by Wikipedia
      Legality


      The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (December 2010)
      In the United States even if an artifact or process is protected by trade secrets, reverse-engineering the artifact or process is often lawful as long as it is obtained legitimately.[21] Patents, on the other hand, need a public disclosure of an invention, and therefore, patented items do not necessarily have to be reverse-engineered to be studied. (However, an item produced under one or more patents could also include other technology that is not patented and not disclosed.) One common motivation of reverse engineers is to determine whether a competitor's product contains patent infringements or copyright infringements.
      The reverse engineering of software in the US is generally illegal because most EULA prohibit it, and courts have found such contractual prohibitions to override the copyright law;[clarification needed] see Bowers v. Baystate Technologies.[22][23] Article 6 of the 1991 EU Computer Programs Directive allows reverse engineering for the purposes of interoperability, but prohibits it for the purposes of creating a competing product, and also prohibits the public release of information obtained through reverse engineering of software.[24][25][26]
      and here are soem refrences:

      Originally Posted by References
      ^ http://www.memagazine.org/contents/c.../trade101.html
      ^ http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellec...discussion.htm
      ^ http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer...ngineering-337
      ^ http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...1L0250:EN:HTML
      ^ http://books.google.com/books?id=KJm...eering&f=false
      ^ http://www.jenkins.eu/articles-gener...neering.asp#a9

      Furthermore the DMCA in the US contains an exception for reverse engineering ( [17 USC �1201(f)] ) albeit in rather restricted conditions (to enable "interoperability")... http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html#f (and there it is on Haverd Law school's webpage if you really care)

      Presumably local laws in different countries also vary greatly.....

      What he's doing in terms of reverse engineering fits into a gray area I suppose...Although there's an argument that when he loads OtherOS he's dropping out of GameOS completely and is simply running Open Source Code...hence is reverse engineering was to enable "interoperability" of the open source OS with the PS3's hardware....???

      Anyway I'm far from an expert - but I suspect that until this area gets rigorously tested in court we're not going to know for certain where any of this stands.

    58. japsander
      04-18-2011
      12:28 PM
      58

      Originally Posted by scristopher
      if anyone wants to buy a fat ps3 w/ 40 games & 4 controllers 1tb internal drive PM me - i just give up
      that would achieve nothing but give sony one more kill.
      im sick of their crap, and im getting a 360 for online play but there is no way in hell that i will give sony the satisfaction of seeing me quit. its my ps3 and i will do whatever i want with it and they cannot do a damn thing about it.
      if i cannot play new games, they lose the money but i still will have linux again.

    59. c0de
      04-18-2011
      12:33 PM
      59

      Originally Posted by arishay
      What most of you don't realize or possibly have missed is that there is nothing secret that Sony is hiding. The reason they are targeting certain dev's is because otherOS support *MUST* be removed due to the partnership they have with IBM. The blade servers IBM markets has their own broadband cell technology but unfortunately they lose business because many consumers figured out the PS3 is cheaper by a huge margin--thus they utilize the console. It's not the consumers fault here...it's Sony. IBM has warned Sony about this exploit and it's costing IBM sales in blade servers. If Sony wants to keep producing the PS3, they have to comply and remove the OtherOS which was allowing people like you and me to create clusters for cheaper than IBM solutions. Obviously with the airforce being only one customer, that large of a purchase from a government entity burned IBM a little, and that is why you all saw the removal of otherOS around the time the contract was created with Sony. Sony will only target people who continue to give access to the otherOS feature through modified firmware. They will keep pushing new firmware updates in the meantime to thwart people who already use a hacked otherOS by limiting game play and PSN access in exchange.
      you are not serious, are you? the ps3 is in *no* way a competitor to ibm's blade servers. the ram is way too low, the cell of the ps3 is outdated... and the ps3 is a toy, not professional business hardware (and most probably does not run aix). and the airforce? omg. imho this was just marketing, not more and not less. an academic proof of "yes, with ps3 one can calculate fast...". totally outdated by now.
      there has to be something different, it can't be eye bee m.

    60. scristopher
      04-18-2011
      12:35 PM
      60

      ugh im just sick of it all - i mean i spent a long time waiting and watching rsx develoment on ps3 (remember that?) and getting excited waiting on gpu driver -- then ripped away after the 3.20 update -- then linux comes back exciting times again! internal install -- Even more exciting!! now all gone and they are trying to hammer graf feel so bad for him

    61. japsander
      04-18-2011
      12:42 PM
      61

      Originally Posted by c0de
      you are not serious, are you? the ps3 is in *no* way a competitor to ibm's blade servers. the ram is way too low, the cell of the ps3 is outdated... and the ps3 is a toy, not professional business hardware (and most probably does not run aix). and the airforce? omg. imho this was just marketing, not more and not less. an academic proof of "yes, with ps3 one can calculate fast...". totally outdated by now.
      there has to be something different, it can't be eye bee m.
      you are completely wrong.
      the ram does not need to be a high amount for computational tasks and also it is a hell of a lot faster that the ram in your pc.
      the cell can still beat almost all mainstream processors for encoding video and performing mathematical tasks.
      the ps3 makes a perfect server that uses very little power compared and would fit perfectly as a home server.
      compare the cost of an "old" ps3 console with the modern day equivelent



      now does that look like its outdated?
      maybe for your opinion on a mainstream pc yes but for tasks other than mainstream PC use hell no.

      http://www.vibrant.com/blog/ps3-moth...-blade-server/

    62. watsupfool
      04-18-2011
      12:55 PM
      62

      I'm getting to the stage where im soo pissed off with Sony I will do anything to piss them off.

      I bought my PS3 for 2 reasons:

      1. I wanted to play GT5 sooooo badly.

      2. I wanted a computer for my TV in the front room.

      So I went and bought my PS3 Fat ****ing years ago only to see delay after ****ing delay from the pricks at PD. So finally after years of waiting GT5 is released and OtherOS is stolen from me.

      Im not making this up, I'm a true Gran Turismo fan and have been since I was a spotty lil kid. Now Im a pissed off man and I think I've been robbed of my hard earned cash.

      Graf I love you man! You're my hero for fighting this and standing up to these filthy stealing pikey ****s. Your destined for great things!

      Sorry for the swearing but this is really how strongly I feel about this whole thing.

    63. c0de
      04-18-2011
      01:02 PM
      63

      [QUOTE=japsander;192348]you are completely wrong.[QUOTE]

      the ram does not need to be a high amount for computational tasks and also it is a hell of a lot faster that the ram in your pc.
      who cares about my pc?! i care about the comparison to ibm's blade servers. they use a new version of the cell, one with good performance also with double-precision floats... but ok, your opinion. the other thing is: scientific computing needs ram. a lot of it. 256 mb is ridiculously low for science. no matter how fast it is.
      the cell can still beat almost all mainstream processors for encoding video and performing mathematical tasks.
      and so? who cares? also don't let out double-prec floats. this is *weak* in the first version of the cell....

      the ps3 makes a perfect server that uses very little power compared and would fit perfectly as a home server.
      sure, "home server". i replied to a poster who said it was competing with ibm's blade server, which is definitely not true.

      now does that look like its outdated?
      regarding high perfomance computing: yes. that is what the discussion was about.

    64. japsander
      04-18-2011
      01:31 PM
      64

      we are talking aboutr a 5yr old machine here. to compare it to a modern IBM server is a little unfair.

      http://techfreep.com/ibms-cell-proce...s3-anymore.htm

      that article is from 2006 and a quote for the blade servers is around $18,000 with 2 x cell. compare that to the cost of 2 x ps3 consoles and any place that needed to build a cluster like the DOD or some universities would be foolhardy to pass the chance up and so they DID use them for the purpose that the more expensive blade servers were built for.

      obviously they were never advertised as such but just as obviously, people did use them as such, making them competitors. using ps3 in these clusters directly lost IBM sales they would have otherwise made. sure the power singularly isnt up to much compared, but compare the amount of ps3 consoles you could cluster for the same cost of one blade server. then compare the overall processing power.

      this post from kakarotoks explains better than i ever could about the ram and cpu etc
      http://www.ps3hax.net/showthread.php...193#post186193

      http://spong.com/article/12757/PlayS...s-Blade-Server

    65. c0de
      04-18-2011
      01:57 PM
      65

      Originally Posted by japsander
      we are talking aboutr a 5yr old machine here. to compare it to a modern IBM server is a little unfair.
      of course. but ibm is also targeting a totally different market. as i said: try to install aix on the ps3...

      http://techfreep.com/ibms-cell-proce...s3-anymore.htm

      that article is from 2006 and a quote for the blade servers is around $18,000 with 2 x cell. compare that to the cost of 2 x ps3 consoles and any place that needed to build a cluster like the DOD or some universities would be foolhardy to pass the chance up and so they DID use them for the purpose that the more expensive blade servers were built for.
      well, the price is not just for the cell itself. you are paying for support (most likely 24/7 nbd), for "blade", for rsb, for os, for ... almost anything the ps3 does not have. of course you could build a cluster with the ps3...

      obviously they were never advertised as such but just as obviously, people did use them as such, making them competitors.
      but for what? academic research it could be, yes. but the ps3 is lacking a lot hpc uses. for example, it only has ge, so no high-bandwidth connection.

      using ps3 in these clusters directly lost IBM sales they would have otherwise made.
      can you prove this? so you are saying that univerities would have bought the big cells instead of some ps3's? i doubt that...
      sure the power singularly isnt up to much compared, but compare the amount of ps3 consoles you could cluster for the same cost of one blade server. then compare the overall processing power.
      as i said above: with a blade you buy a lot more than just a processor with ram...

      this post from kakarotoks explains better than i ever could about the ram and cpu etc
      http://www.ps3hax.net/showthread.php...193#post186193
      did i say something different?

    66. scristopher
      04-18-2011
      02:09 PM
      66

      jesus can we just stay on topic? the topic is they are taking away end user privileges - while hurting innocent devs that arent doing anything to help piracy - do people use ps3's in a server cluster - yes they do are ps3s more powerful than your modern blade servers - no they are not but you can cluster ps3's to make super computers
      the object was never to have a super computer but a usable one to have a working home pc with linux
      the other objective was just to have proof of concept that things can be done and that nothing is impossible (within hardware limitation)
      harassing graf and other devs making them halt research is just wrong

    67. c0de
      04-18-2011
      02:19 PM
      67

      well, the topic is, in my opinion, the german police or lawyers (i am german, too and live in the same state as graf does). it is really sad what is going on here. in germany one has to be very careful when fiddling with computers. we aren't even really allowed to use "hackertools" like nmap! i hope graf can keep up his work or perhaps someone can act as a "ghost", a man in the middle between the scene and graf (better not located in germany ).

    68. OoZic
      04-18-2011
      02:20 PM
      68

      Originally Posted by c0de
      you are not serious, are you? the ps3 is in *no* way a competitor to ibm's blade servers. the ram is way too low, the cell of the ps3 is outdated... and the ps3 is a toy, not professional business hardware (and most probably does not run aix). and the airforce? omg. imho this was just marketing, not more and not less. an academic proof of "yes, with ps3 one can calculate fast...". totally outdated by now.
      there has to be something different, it can't be eye bee m.
      Really ??

      http://hothardware.com/News/New-PS3-...-Fully-Online/
      (New PS3 "Condor" Supercomputer Now Fully Online, date: 25 march 2011)


      With 7 SPE's per PS3 (the eighth is deactivated), the 1,716 systems offer a total of 12,012 processors.
      The Condor is, according to the Air Force, one of the forty fastest computers in the world and will hopefully solve a pervasive problem for the modern military.
      Keep on negative dreaming , the PS3 can do everything even get you in jail...
      Ram is only low for people who think an OS needs a Graphical User Interface

    69. c0de
      04-18-2011
      02:34 PM
      69

      Originally Posted by OoZic
      http://hothardware.com/News/New-PS3-...-Fully-Online/
      (New PS3 "Condor" Supercomputer Now Fully Online, date: 25 march 2011)

      haha, nice one.



      Keep on negative dreaming
      eh... no.
      the PS3 can do everything
      eh... definitely no
      even get you in jail...
      that for sure...
      Ram is only low for people who think an OS needs a Graphical User Interface
      eh... no

    70. OoZic
      04-18-2011
      02:56 PM
      70

      Originally Posted by c0de
      haha, nice one.



      eh... no.
      eh... definitely no
      that for sure...

      eh... no
      Without negative dreaming live is much better

      "PS3 can do everything" was Sony Propaganda, complain at Sony


      Better slogan would be "It only is not allowed to do everything"

    71. junior2k9
      04-18-2011
      03:15 PM
      71

      how do I donate if hes willing to fight i'm willing to donate ! a big F*** Y** to GeoNot for being such a puss

    72. OoZic
      04-18-2011
      03:54 PM
      72

      junior2k9:

      hit the Source word below the article.

      I'll make it easy for you: http://grafchokolo.com/grafchokolo-f....html#comments

      O, and if you are at CFW 3.55, you are using "puss" his keys (which he obtained with the help/tools of team FailOverfl0w to be correct). Be grateful for what you have and don't be ungrateful for what you don't have. makes life so much better
      Being ungrateful for what you lose is another thing (@ Sony )

    73. itai84
      04-18-2011
      04:28 PM
      73

      Graf, if your reading this, don't do jail time for a goddamn games console. We won't respect you any less, you put your time & effort in and those that know respect it. Your stuff is everywhere, if you feel the need to carry on, go underground.

      Graf your are the ****in man, and I probably speak for many, please don't waste your life fighting a corperation with a cheque book as big as Sonys. All that talent behind bars would be a waste, not saying that would be the outcome but Sony are ruthless. Respect.

    74. Silent657
      04-18-2011
      05:34 PM
      74

      ...i don't know if anyone has seen the movie "The International" but doesn't all these events seem similar to how that movie is.Based on a true story.Just like Geohot.... anyone in position to go against sony or try to bring back Os. ends up in court or raided "GraF".Sony will do whatever it takes to make sure they're information stays hidden.


      next thing you know we will start hearing "accidents" happening to hackers from "natural cause"

    75. 2die4
      04-18-2011
      06:11 PM
      75

      sony europe bribed british lord mandelson to help pass the DMCA in the uk which was rushed through in the round up of parliment which meant that laws could be passed without as much hassle

      this is a murky world alot of corruption and graf situation could be a watershed

    76. lantisearth
      04-18-2011
      06:56 PM
      76

      from brasil, donated what i've could. graf, keep fighting the good fight!

    77. ramuh13
      04-18-2011
      09:15 PM
      77

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Your lucky it was only 6 months.

      What your doing is illegal. Reverse engineering is illegal.
      Want Linux use a damn PC, then you don't have the memory limitations of the PS3.
      ..then what the F*ck are you doing in this site? ya sony's lapdog?

    78. marty370
      04-19-2011
      02:57 AM
      78

      I'm far from Sonys lap dog.

      I have no interest in Other OS even thou my PS3 had it.

      All I did was say what Graf did/doing is illegal.

      Sonys only protecting it's own/other offical devs interests, now that PS3 is opened up with full use of PS3 hardware eg RSX/full memory, Linux games could rival commerically produced games.

      So Sony/offical devs could stand to loose millions.

    79. japsander
      04-19-2011
      03:16 AM
      79

      Originally Posted by marty370
      I'm far from Sonys lap dog.

      I have no interest in Other OS even thou my PS3 had it.

      All I did was say what Graf did/doing is illegal.

      Sonys only protecting it's own/other offical devs interests, now that PS3 is opened up with full use of PS3 hardware eg RSX/full memory, Linux games could rival commerically produced games.

      So Sony/offical devs could stand to loose millions.
      Sony are claiming Graf is enabling piracy by enabling Linux. this is not true

      that does not make it illegal. reversing is legal.
      Sony released the ps3 with the ability to use ANY operating system that would run. now if that operating system unlocks more power than Sony wanted, tough luck for them. they should have never released the ps3 with the ability in the first place. the fact is that they did, and then changed their minds.

      if they just removed it from slims at launch I would have cared as the slim was never advertised with it. fats on the otherhand was advertised.

      nobody is kicking up a fuss about backwards compatibility being removed in later consoles.

      if they didn't want to carry it on they should have simply not included it in later models, not remove it from already capable ones.

    80. marty370
      04-19-2011
      03:33 AM
      80

      Reversing is illegal, when you do it in order to get round any protection thats in place. Decrpting/ decompiling copyrighted code it where the act of reversing breakes several laws.

    81. OoZic
      04-19-2011
      03:41 AM
      81

      another update from Graf his blog:

      graf_chokolo says:
      April 19, 2011 at 6:11 am
      I found some interesting information about SONY’s lawyer, Mr Arnold from “Arnold und Reuss”, guys. Apparently, he is among PS3 hackers and developers a very well known “hitman” of SONY and doing SONY’s “dirty jobs” for several years already. He is following always the same pattern, trying to intimidate and scare off PS3 developers with high money penalties if they do not cooperate. And those TROs against me were signed by always the same “old friend” of Mr Arnold, a judge from Hamburg, who either doesn’t understand what’s going on, or doesn’t care or is “playing” on SONY’s side which makes him a very dangerous person i think. Maybe someone of our justice and freedom “fighters” should take a closer look at this “old friend” of SONY. What do you think ? I won’t be surpised if i get another raid ordered from Hamburg soon.

      You should have seen Mr Arnold, guys, during the second “visit” of SONY at my home. His hands were trembling and he was desperately trying to find a USB drive with “coolstuff.rar” (whatever it is) in my home. My old university professor would call him “a typical sunny boy”. I was cool and determined and he was behaving like his home was raided. I guess SONY wasn’t happy with HV bible release after the first raid and he got a severe drubbing from SONY for slipping it through his hands.
      Edit: little curious about lawyers defending thiefs and their actions, so looked up "Arnold und Reuss" webpage: http://www.arnold-ruess.com/en/

      ************* [ - Post Merged - ] *************
      Originally Posted by marty370
      Reversing is illegal, when you do it in order to get round any protection thats in place. Decrpting/ decompiling copyrighted code it where the act of reversing breakes several laws.
      This is an Action/Reaction story, so start from the beginning:

      The action to remove OtherOS was in the first place illegal. Everything what happened after that was a result of (or reaction to) that illegal removal. I call Sony's action provoking and Sony got what they asked for..
      I paid for playing ALL PS3 games/OtherOS/access to PSN and no matter what Sony wants I have the right to keep it that way. And advertising "It Only Does Everything �" and make it a copyrighted slogan while they limit it, by blackmail, to NOT to do everything it could do before? Their copyrighted slogan gives us the right to run OtherOS forever in combination with any FW I would say.

      If someone steals your PS3 (and stole other little but important things from you before and also spies on you), you know who the thief is and the police/justice won't help you to get your property back (but even takes the thief's side because of his big muscular bundle and his smooth lies)...... you agree with that and let it happen or are you going to get it back yourself and say: "this was the limit, you crossed the line one time to many you thief!!"?

    82. arishay
      04-19-2011
      07:25 AM
      82

      I read through all the posts up to this point, those regarding the legalities of reverse engineering and those of the legalities of what they did to the developers like Graf and Hotz. Also, the many points made about the lack of processing power that the ps3 has compared to the real deal blade servers by IBM. I offer you this round of amendments:

      - IBM *does* have a financial commitment in the cell technology, regardless of it's version. If the Air Force or any other larger organization (university) decides to make a huge purchase of playstations just to use it for problem solving in a cluster then it takes away from the money IBM should be making on their platform. They went to Sony with a resolution, and Sony must comply which leads me to the next...

      - If it was illegal for Sony to remove the OtherOS feature then what would you have them do? Have it be illegal to produce a Playstation 3 utilizing the Cell architecture even though they no longer have a license from IBM to sell it in their system? The problem is the hardware, not the software. They can modify software any time, but they can not modify hardware. They can in some ways disable hardware through firmware but people find a way around it but this isn't applicable to the cell core anyways.

      - Graf and Hotz are targeted because they directly compromised Sony's investment by giving back-doors for users to install the OtherOS. Sony can't comply with IBM's requests if they allow developers to unlock the hardware even though the commitment they made with IBM was to remove the OtherOS feature.

      ...So to summarize here: We are all in a pickle. IBM wants to make more return on blade servers, Sony wants to keep the PS3 going until they make their financial goals and we want the PS3 more open-source.

      Honestly I want my ps3's unlocked to their full potential like any consumer, and if the capabilities to do more are out there then I want what I paid for. The problem is when you buy a jar of peanut butter you can't always get the last spoonful out no matter how hard you try because you might break the jar. There are ways you can cheat and get it all but it will probably ruin the flavor.

      The only thing we can do is comply with what IBM wants, as it's not about what Sony wants. If Sony didn't work the deal, then the PS3 simply goes away just like the Dreamcast. I'm sure Sony would have left it alone if they didn't have the legal obligation to stop it. Look at the PSP--it's blown wide open and they really didn't do a whole lot to stop it because they didn't have anyone breathing down their necks about it.

    83. japsander
      04-19-2011
      07:45 AM
      83

      very nice post arishay I would thank you if my button hadnt vanished (again)

      sonys fail should never be taken out on it's customers.

      if it becomes a choice between illegally producing the console or illegally removing otheros then they should choose option 3 (reimburse a partial amount to those with fat ps3's)

      any other way they go about it is wrong.
      they messed up, they should apologise to us, not blame us for doing what we payed for.

    84. OoZic
      04-19-2011
      08:02 AM
      84

      They could also put in their EULA/ToS something like "it is not allowed to build clusters of more than 5 PS3's". This way IBM their own supercomputers are protected and Sony keeps the faith of the community and keeps the PS3 the way it was sold to the customer.
      Large institutes like the US Army will keep themselves to this EULA, they understand what it means (they have lawyers for that) and are also able to pay large amounts of money (let's say one million Euro's ) if they don't keep themselves to the EULA. Smashing around with this kind of claims to an individual dev is just laughable.
      And I said it before: Sony never tried to find a way to compensate for what they took away.

      If your story is true I really hate it Sony is not open about it but lies to us OtherOS was removed for security reasons. If they told their customers they were forced by IBM to take this move a large part of the community would have understood.

      Now stating OtherOS is a game is the worst thing they could have come with. Tell Linux users they are little children that play a game instead of a serious open source operating system way better as Windows....Sony doesn't learn, they keep on asking for more trouble.
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_cluster ... nice read
      http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...-air-force.ars ... also

      Your story does conflict with the article on arstechnica:

      Once completed as a proof of concept, Air Force researchers then scaled up by a factor of six and went in search of 2,200 more consoles (later scaled back to 1,700). The $663,000 contract was awarded on January 6, 2010, to a small company called Fixstars that could provide 1,700 160GB PS3 systems to the government.

      Getting that many units was difficult enough that the government required bidders to get a letter from Sony certifying that the units were actually available.
      That was 3 months before they launched FW 3.21 to remove OtherOS. If they had trouble already with IBM about the cell technology they wouldn't have given the certifying letter.
      Note it is not difficult to get 1700 PS3's, but at that time the Slim was already introduced and Fat PS3's were difficult to get. It had to be an old stock from Sony they kept back for this kind of reasons or something I think.

      Sony to IBM: "We removed otherOS as you asked with the introduction of the Slim PS3 and soon with a FW update but we hope you don't have a problem we still sell the Fat systems we have with OtherOS you don't like to the US Government to build a supercomputer you don't want? Is that OK?"

    85. Wolfie708
      04-19-2011
      08:13 AM
      85

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Reversing is illegal, when you do it in order to get round any protection thats in place. Decrpting/ decompiling copyrighted code it where the act of reversing breakes several laws.
      Again, it is not illegal, and even taking into account the valid points you make of copyrighted code, it is still not illegal for any individual (and some educational organisations for that matter) to strip his (or her) piece of kit to the bones, both hardware and software wise (voids warranty of course).

      The grey areas are what is legal or illegal if it is then distributed to others as the original rules were not really written for anything else but breach of copyright leading to Piracy etc and do not allow much scope for the likes of Graf to do what he is doing.

      Yes what is being done by Graf is as it stands now against Sony' rules, but if it were so cut and dry there would be no need for a court case at all. Sony would file to sue for breach of copyright, and that would be an end to it.

    86. ramuh13
      04-19-2011
      09:40 AM
      86

      ...mighty fine thread ...ya readin� this sony?? I hope your research goons reports this to you... screenshot this ,l,,

    87. johnnyb15613
      04-19-2011
      03:26 PM
      87

      The absolute bottom line is..........SONY STOLE WHAT BELONGED TO US!
      Any who own a fat console, also own the bootloader to install OTHEROS!
      They had no right (don't give a **** if its IBM, Hitler, Allah, God, or anybody else) to steal from us! I will continue to use OtherOS to look for compromises is Sony's code, AND NOBODY ON THIS EARTH CAN LAWFULLY STOP ME, GRAF, OR ANYBODY ELSE!
      If anybody else wants to complain about reversing, stay the **** off hacking sites!

      $0.02

    88. Da ToxicFox
      04-19-2011
      04:09 PM
      88

      Originally Posted by johnnyb15613
      The absolute bottom line is..........SONY STOLE WHAT BELONGED TO US!
      Any who own a fat console, also own the bootloader to install OTHEROS!
      They had no right (don't give a **** if its IBM, Hitler, Allah, God, or anybody else) to steal from us! I will continue to use OtherOS to look for compromises is Sony's code, AND NOBODY ON THIS EARTH CAN LAWFULLY STOP ME, GRAF, OR ANYBODY ELSE!
      If anybody else wants to complain about reversing, stay the **** off hacking sites!

      $0.02
      Lawfully no but they can always prolong the fight till you run out of money or bribe the judge. Sooner or later Sony is going to have to pay for the way they have been acting. Until then its best for the devs to keep their head down so they don't get tossed down.

    89. pimpspter
      04-20-2011
      09:53 AM
      89

      People need to understand that the law on reverse engineering is different from place to place. A lot of the debate here seems to be using US law....let us remember that hacking of consoles is a worldwide effort which crosses many jurisdictions. Graf is in Germany I believe and I have no idea what the law is there. Disseminating information gained by reverse engineering is often a crucial thing to the legality and I believe many areas have an excetion for interoperability.

      Also if Sony has problems with OtherOS then they don't release new ps3s with the feature. There is nothing morally or legally that they can do about devices that have already been sold bought and paid for. It's just tough for IBM but that is the way it is. Imagine you got a call from intel telling you that Dell were no longer licensed to use your processor so they were sending someone round to disable it....you wouldn't stand for it I'd guess? This comes down to who owns something once we've bought it...

      The verdicts Sony has been getting if late reek though. I really think as i said earlier we should all contact our government representatives about this issue. A stand is needing made against the corporate oppression of consumers.

    90. Wolfie708
      04-20-2011
      10:16 AM
      90

      I honestly think one of the biggest problems is that the judges and lawyers really do not understand the meanings and uses of software. They see an OS as a solid complete item, and because of the DMCA and EULAs they struggle to see how one small part of the whole can be different to another.

      Add to that the underlying feelings that everyone has that to hack anything means you are a pirate and a thief, it is very hard for anyone to sway their opinions (Sony' vast amounts of money and influence do not help either). Apologies for GH bashing (again lol), but his blatant admission that Sony were correct in their accusations adds even more weight to the belief that all hackers are bad.

      It is a Real pity a case cannot be held in Norway, as they have seen from the removal of OOS that Sony are taking the p*ss.

    91. blaqwood
      04-20-2011
      09:35 PM
      91

      Graf may have a chance to legally fight this if he can gain some knowledge on common law..(bare with me!)

      A birth cert' is not a valid document of identity (read the bottom of it!) so what he can do is denounce the identity given to him (as a human being) as he was able to object to to the terms of the contract formed when the birth cert (this is legal to do so under COMMON LAW).

      From that he can then easily go against many court orders and court jurisdictions handed to him as he's advised the courts that:

      - The courts are addressing not him but a piece of paper that isn't really there!!

      There is a bit more groundwork he would have to do (and a lot more in depth explanation I would have to give for the the whole process to work under common law) but the above would be the start which is legal and would delay any court hearing/summing by a long time.

    92. Da ToxicFox
      04-20-2011
      10:52 PM
      92

      Originally Posted by blaqwood
      Graf may have a chance to legally fight this if he can gain some knowledge on common law..(bare with me!)

      A birth cert' is not a valid document of identity (read the bottom of it!) so what he can do is denounce the identity given to him (as a human being) as he was able to object to to the terms of the contract formed when the birth cert (this is legal to do so under COMMON LAW).

      From that he can then easily go against many court orders and court jurisdictions handed to him as he's advised the courts that:

      - The courts are addressing not him but a piece of paper that isn't really there!!

      There is a bit more groundwork he would have to do (and a lot more in depth explanation I would have to give for the the whole process to work under common law) but the above would be the start which is legal and would delay any court hearing/summing by a long time.
      Wouldn't that only serve to make him look bad in front of the judge? It might be better to take the approach that makes Sony out to be the criminal for removing otherOS.

    93. japsander
      04-21-2011
      02:56 AM
      93

      Originally Posted by blaqwood
      Graf may have a chance to legally fight this if he can gain some knowledge on common law..(bare with me!)

      A birth cert' is not a valid document of identity (read the bottom of it!) so what he can do is denounce the identity given to him (as a human being) as he was able to object to to the terms of the contract formed when the birth cert (this is legal to do so under COMMON LAW).

      From that he can then easily go against many court orders and court jurisdictions handed to him as he's advised the courts that:

      - The courts are addressing not him but a piece of paper that isn't really there!!

      There is a bit more groundwork he would have to do (and a lot more in depth explanation I would have to give for the the whole process to work under common law) but the above would be the start which is legal and would delay any court hearing/summing by a long time.
      that would only work if he had never signed into any legally binding contract using his name. by signing his name he accepts it as his identity. by denouncing it afterwards he would be admitting multiple counts of fraud. anything in his name would not legally belong to him.
      the courts would claim that he is of an age where he "defaults" to accepting the birth identity as he hasn't changed his name to one that he accepts.

      we had this discussion at college ages ago after a video interview. the word of the law is full of small flaws such as the word "understand". if the judge asks if you understand the ruling, you can say NO as you cannot "stand under" a bunch of words.

      this type of tactic would only serve to annoy the courts and make himself look guilty, trying to stall for time. Sony are allowed to do this as they have the money and it's their name stamped on the item in question and they are the alleged victim in this travesty

    94. zeveroth
      04-21-2011
      10:18 AM
      94

      I couldn't take the bs after page 8. So let me ask a question. Whoever thinks that Linux games will be better than a ps3 game, is a moron. Sony will not lose money on games because of that. They are just plain greedy. Period!

    95. Wolfie708
      04-21-2011
      10:20 AM
      95

      Originally Posted by zeveroth
      I couldn't take the bs after page 8. So let me ask a question. Whoever thinks that Linux games will be better than a ps3 game, is a moron. Sony will not lose money on games because of that. They are just plain greedy. Period!
      Yes they are just plain greedy, but do you have to insult anyone who thinks differently from you?

      EDIT I am still waiting for your question?

    96. OoZic
      04-21-2011
      01:27 PM
      96

      Originally Posted by zeveroth
      I couldn't take the bs after page 8. So let me ask a question. Whoever thinks that Linux games will be better than a ps3 game, is a moron. Sony will not lose money on games because of that. They are just plain greedy. Period!
      I almost wanted to say "whoever thinks that Linux on the PS3 will be used to play games (except emulators) is a moron", but I don't As long as there is no RSX driver Linux on the PS3 has no graphical power at all besides VESA.
      According to Sony Linux is a complete game BTW

    97. makinlifehappen
      04-21-2011
      09:49 PM
      97

      Sony really is not that bad peoples, you all should complain about the soon to be 15 trillion dollar deficit. Or how about how many of you are walmart shoppers. Those jerks are way more greedy that sony. How about the companies that destroy our environment? No everyone wants to ***** about some dush that couldnt pay his own legal fees crying after talking **** to a multi billion $$ comany. In 10 years NO ONE WILL CARE about this crap. Just like in 10 years no one will care that I was in the Army...... Makes no sense, if your going to donate your money for a good cause donate to planned parent hood, the government took ALL their money away for the fiscal year. Find a homeless shelter and donate your time. Everyone on here seems fairly educated, look up whats going on the winter solstice next year, in 2000 almost all of our satellites went out do to solar flares, next year we are expecting more solar activity than ever before. So what will all of you do with out the net???

    98. Annelies
      04-21-2011
      09:54 PM
      98

      Originally Posted by makinlifehappen
      Sony really is not that bad peoples, you all should complain about the soon to be 15 trillion dollar deficit. Or how about how many of you are walmart shoppers. Those jerks are way more greedy that sony. How about the companies that destroy our environment? No everyone wants to ***** about some dush that couldnt pay his own legal fees crying after talking **** to a multi billion $$ comany. In 10 years NO ONE WILL CARE about this crap. Just like in 10 years no one will care that I was in the Army...... Makes no sense, if your going to donate your money for a good cause donate to planned parent hood, the government took ALL their money away for the fiscal year. Find a homeless shelter and donate your time. Everyone on here seems fairly educated, look up whats going on the winter solstice next year, in 2000 almost all of our satellites went out do to solar flares, next year we are expecting more solar activity than ever before. So what will all of you do with out the net???
      All the real-world problems you mentioned are serious, I agree but have nothing to do with the purpose of this website. It's called PS3Hax Netwok and we all choose to come here so we can discuss PS3 hacking/modding because it's interesting to us and we have fun doing so.

      Everything you just mentioned can also be discussed here as well, in the Off-Topic section. Feel free to discuss anything you'd like there.

    99. makinlifehappen
      04-21-2011
      10:01 PM
      99

      << not the only one but my bad....

    100. pimpspter
      04-23-2011
      09:35 AM
      100

      Just to point out that a Finnish consumer rights body have ruled Sony was in the wrong for removing Other OS and ruled that the plaintiff should be paid 100 euros by Sony and the people from whom he purchased the device.

      Now it was in finland but I wonder if it may prove useful to graf's lawyers should he go ahead....

      Also a court would be needed to force them to pay out said 100 euros...still if we all made complaints, were all awarded money back and donated even 10% of it to graf's legal bills it'd be quite poetic wouldn't it?

      Sony would be paying for graf's lawyers! ;-)