• General, Orbis , 09.04.2013

    No bottlenecks.

     

    Interesting info about “Bottleneck” problem while developing on PS4. KZ dev Michiel Van Der Leeuw said that had no problem at all with Bottlenecks (Term used on PC gaming most of the time) due that PS4 hardware is well-balanced and with an engine well optimized, end-user will not suffer of this.
    Honestly i found it not so hard to believe because PS4 as Durango specs are from some high-end PC.
    What’s make me think about this whole situation is PS4 and Durango lifespan hence if we don’t have the chance to upgrade certain components from this consoles both could get “outdated” faster.
    But it’s cool to know that we will not experience bootlenecks on such awesome game.

     

    To quote:

    Somebody (Microsoft) has to put the brakes on Sony as they and their PS4 continue to grow stronger day by day. Upon constant detail reveals and developer praise and approval, the future is looking incredibly bright for the console.

    Killzone developer, Michiel Van Der Leeuw, has made some promising statements, saying that he could not come across any “bottlenecks” with the PS4. “The fact that the best pieces of hardware are also devised from, or optimized versions of, the stuff we find in PCs doesn’t make it any less a console. A PC is a number of parts that also [have] bridges in-between, where there are inefficiencies that may [come in if they're not] exactly the right match, “ said Leeuw. “We’ve got the right amount of memory, video card; everything’s balanced out.”

    “It was a very conscious effort to make sure that – with the speed of the memory, the amount of compute units, the speed of the hard drive – there would not be any bottlenecks,” added Leeuw. “I think it was for more than a year that we knew the main ingredients and there was just discussion after discussion trying to find a bottleneck. Take a look at this design; try to find the bottleneck.” If the term “bottleneck” is foreign to you, it simply refers to the overall performance of a system being limited by one component or resource. For a highly accredited developer to make such a bold statement gives me the chills.

    Sony’s yet to bless the fans with their actual console, but many of us are expecting it during E3. Until then, the appraisal of developers will suffice. E3’s days are numbered, so the flow of details will continue to come through. This years E3 is going to be nothing short of epic. With the PS4, and hopefully the new Xbox, it’s going to be a scorching event!

     

    [Source] = NGU

    Discuss in Forums (19)


  • 19 Comments

    1. BobbyBangin
      04-09-2013
      07:36 PM
      1

      Lol...these developers are on $ony's nutts. It's mostly because they know $ony does more to prevent people from pirating their games than any other console platform. It all makes sense when you think about the politics in business. I don't think there's going to be any special benefit of owning one over an XBOX 720 or a Gaming PC with an SSD in it. Just developers who are hyping $ony because they think they'll sell more games on that platform due to piracy protection.

    2. hellsing9
      04-09-2013
      07:41 PM
      2

      Originally Posted by BobbyBangin
      Lol...these developers are on $ony's nutts. It's mostly because they know $ony does more to prevent people from pirating their games than any other console platform. It all makes sense when you think about the politics in business. I don't think there's going to be any special benefit of owning one over an XBOX 720 or a Gaming PC with an SSD in it. Just developers who are hyping $ony because they think they'll sell more games on that platform due to piracy protection.
      Well "bottleneck" always is and was a problem on PC gaming.
      I think they are using this excuse to make PS4 could kill PC gaming hence without "bottlenecks" gameplay is better.

      They want to wipe PC from the market once for all.
      But yeah PS4 devs are hyping very often...

    3. Prince Valiant
      04-09-2013
      08:04 PM
      3

      It's always going to be a problem no matter what platform you're using if the hardware isn't up to the challenge.

    4. BobbyBangin
      04-09-2013
      08:06 PM
      4

      Originally Posted by hellsing9
      But yeah PS4 devs are hyping very often...
      Paying for good publicity isn't anything new.

    5. VIRGIN KLM
      04-09-2013
      08:27 PM
      5

      A device that is not bottlenecking is not equal to a strong device.
      You can have a pentium 4 that is not bottlenecking with it's components let's say.
      Bottlenecking is a factor between the component ratios and how balanced a system is according also to how much money you spent on each compontent too.
      PS4 may be a balanced product but no way a high-end spec device, I mean not even near high-end, it will have a hard time to catch up with current technology really faster and earlier than PS3 did.

    6. solid_s_1117
      04-09-2013
      08:31 PM
      6

      "if we don't have the chance to upgrade certain components from this consoles both could get "outdated" faster."

      That would be a novel and fantastic solution, but how does Sony or Microsoft profit from the end user buying (presumably) third party PC components to upgrade the base console? I assume Sony will be operating at a loss in regard to selling the hardware units and is obviously focused on software this go around, but I'm not sure if your average user wants or knows how to upgrade a PC in that regard, hence their proclivity to purchase a console.

    7. WalangAlam
      04-09-2013
      08:42 PM
      7

      huh is there a bottleneck in consoles?

      I shifted to console gaming coz I can't afford almost annual expensive pc components upgrades. If they could make the cpu/gpu removable/replaceable though like pc then that would be very nice since no more reflow and reball for ylod ps4.

      ps4 is looking good and at least it won't be an always online console like xbox

    8. VIRGIN KLM
      04-09-2013
      09:04 PM
      8

      Originally Posted by WalangAlam
      huh is there a bottleneck in consoles?
      Yeah, PS3 was possibly the most heavily bottlenecked console in history and it wasn't just one factor of bottlenecking there were 2 or 3 which was kinda embarrassing. A close second is the Sega Saturn.

      Originally Posted by WalangAlam
      I shifted to console gaming coz I can't afford almost annual expensive pc components upgrades.
      It was proven quite some years now that console gaming is no way an alternative or an actul way to avoid spending money for people that cannot afford buying an expensive PC with components since none of these consoles are cheap atleast unless they get pretty outdated for today's standars and the games you pay for them are atleast 30-40% more expensive than their actual PC versions which is not really ending up as a way to save on you pocket at all.
      Originally Posted by WalangAlam
      ps4 is looking good and at least it won't be an always online console like xbox
      I'd say be a bit optimistic or just get ready to be really dissapointed. Also, for the record, PS4 will be the console that spends the most time online and be most online dependent than anything that came out today, XBOX and PS3 are some light years away to what is going to happen with PS4. I can see alot of people complaining pretty like from day one. Actually I'm sure, I can easily bet $$$ for that.

    9. svenmullet
      04-09-2013
      09:46 PM
      9

      I have a feeling PS4 is going to be basically an ad-streaming box that plays games. Durango too, I mean the 360 is that already, it's only going to get worse. So in that regard, yeah, of course they don't want any bottlenecks in serving up their advertising and paid content. The only thing missing is a new proprietary optical disc format ("Green-Ray"?) that has no backwards-compatibility with anything else so you're forced to re-buy everything (on Green-Ray).

      Now, see, if Sony is smart, they'll incorporate that smartcard reader into the PS4, so you can just swipe your CC to pay for yet another copy of a game you already have but can't play because the backwards-compatibility is reserved for DRM-locked disc images available on the playstation store.

    10. UrbanAnonymous
      04-09-2013
      10:00 PM
      10

      all this not being able to play used games and no backward compatibility is going to change alot of peoples opinions on piracy, and they think theyre going to be preventing it? there going to get raped without a condom in the end, mark my words... at least gamestop will go out of buisness, i hate gamestop!

    11. smf
      04-09-2013
      10:23 PM
      11

      Originally Posted by svenmullet
      The only thing missing is a new proprietary optical disc format ("Green-Ray"?) that has no backwards-compatibility with anything else so you're forced to re-buy everything (on Green-Ray).
      It's going to use bluray & the drive will be backward compatible.
      Games aren't though.

    12. hellsing9
      04-10-2013
      02:08 AM
      12

      Originally Posted by solid_s_1117
      "if we don't have the chance to upgrade certain components from this consoles both could get "outdated" faster."

      That would be a novel and fantastic solution, but how does Sony or Microsoft profit from the end user buying (presumably) third party PC components to upgrade the base console? I assume Sony will be operating at a loss in regard to selling the hardware units and is obviously focused on software this go around, but I'm not sure if your average user wants or knows how to upgrade a PC in that regard, hence their proclivity to purchase a console.
      Well they can.
      As many companies as Sony with their Vaio's laptops you can upgrade some parts of your laptop with Sony's components at higher costs with no chance whatsoever to use some other memory stick that's not from sony.

      Eventually this consoles will get outdated and they need to change their policies about that hence they can manufacture for example if you need more ram or some kind of hardware upgrade with Sony label over those components. (So far PS4 has AMD)
      PS4/Durango or so to speak console gaming is closer enough to PC gaming.
      So why don't give end user that option?.

      They can do it, problem is they don't want to.

      Originally Posted by svenmullet
      I have a feeling PS4 is going to be basically an ad-streaming box that plays games. Durango too, I mean the 360 is that already, it's only going to get worse. So in that regard, yeah, of course they don't want any bottlenecks in serving up their advertising and paid content. The only thing missing is a new proprietary optical disc format ("Green-Ray"?) that has no backwards-compatibility with anything else so you're forced to re-buy everything (on Green-Ray).

      Now, see, if Sony is smart, they'll incorporate that smartcard reader into the PS4, so you can just swipe your CC to pay for yet another copy of a game you already have but can't play because the backwards-compatibility is reserved for DRM-locked disc images available on the playstation store.
      Nothing new on DRM. That's the way of sony of keep ****ing with end user.
      This time they can't bet higher than when they released PS3 with blu-ray as optical drive. (Risky move) While DVD was the boss back then.
      Ubisoft done the same and got PWNED yesterday with Uplay letting users download games without all that DRM ****. (Russian Hackers).

      Like i said many times there's no room for innovation. They (both MS and Sony) want all the information on a Cloud.
      That's the main reason of Gaikai.
      If Durango will get a blu-ray drive, Sony is pretty much ****ed.
      Main reason many got their PS3 is for the blu-ray drive not even for playing. Just watching movies until blu-ray drives appeared on PC market to use as internal drive and blu-ray players.

      If they keep with their up with their stupid movements...well we can picture the outcome of that.

    13. OoZic
      04-10-2013
      03:35 AM
      13

      Ok, the PS4 isn't bottlenecking right now, but how will this be in 2 or 3 years when games are developed for better hardware as the PS4 will have

    14. tonybolony
      04-10-2013
      04:42 AM
      14

      i cant wait for this console :-)

    15. smf
      04-10-2013
      06:32 AM
      15

      Originally Posted by hellsing9
      Eventually this consoles will get outdated and they need to change their policies about that hence they can manufacture for example if you need more ram or some kind of hardware upgrade with Sony label over those components. (So far PS4 has AMD)
      PS4/Durango or so to speak console gaming is closer enough to PC gaming.
      So why don't give end user that option?.

      They can do it, problem is they don't want to.
      Consoles have been popular with end users and developers because the specification is fixed. If they allow upgrades then it loses that advantage. While you think you want them to be upgradable, you'd be very disappointed if they actually allowed it. The price would be higher as everything is surface mounted, so cost of materials and manufacturing would have to include sockets etc. The developers would have to design their software to take the different configurations into account, which would take more effort and cost more money.

      For ram upgrades most of them wouldn't bother using it (like how Atari ST software came on 2 single sided floppy disks because the small minority of machines were shipped with single sided floppy drives).

      As the machine uses unified memory then putting in a faster cpu or gpu isn't going to make a huge difference to performance, one will have to steal bus time from the other to get access to ram.

      Originally Posted by OoZic
      Ok, the PS4 isn't bottlenecking right now, but how will this be in 2 or 3 years when games are developed for better hardware as the PS4 will have
      Lack of bottlenecking doesn't determine how fast it is. What it means is that there won't be power that will be hard to get at. For example on the PS3 it was difficult to get all the SPE's doing something useful because the ram interface wasn't fast enough. It basically saves the developers time trying to squeeze extra performance by using clever tricks.

      This might mean that you see less of an improvement in games over time than in previous consoles, because there are going to be less tricks for the developers to discover. Instead they will have to rely on creativity when producing new games, which I think is probably a good thing.

    16. Thelostdeathknight
      04-10-2013
      08:10 AM
      16

      Originally Posted by hellsing9
      They want to wipe PC from the market once for all.
      LOL they can want all they like, PC gaming is king and will remain that way.

      Originally Posted by smf
      This might mean that you see less of an improvement in games over time than in previous consoles, because there are going to be less tricks for the developers to discover. Instead they will have to rely on creativity when producing new games, which I think is probably a good thing.
      One can hope... one can hope

    17. marty370
      04-10-2013
      11:08 AM
      17

      Well considering that Sony has it's main hardware on a single die, whats to bottleneck. CPU/APU/GPU/8gb GDDR5 ram, gonna be very fast moving data by chip transfer rather than slow buses. PS4 is a very effient design.

    18. euss
      04-11-2013
      01:17 AM
      18

      So Sony developers, of Sony prerelease titles, say with approval of Sony Legal and Sony PR that the Sony console and the Sony devkits, that they own/lease from Sony devnet are working fine for making Sony target audience productions?

      I have news for you : KFC says their chicken is the finest, Mc.D say to use the best beef and PizzaHut say make the best dough...

      Ofcourse everyone knows that, but to let yourself so easily pushed in front of an ongoing marketing campaign is disgusting imo for any site that likes to portrait himself as a "news site".

      Back to techtalk:
      Any piece of hardware/electronics has bottlenecks, limitations. If you are not experiencing any of them while using it when developing then it means you are lying (advertising), stupid (using SDK/tools that are already restricting you) and/or not taking any advantage nor pushing the limits (lets just do this on <resolutions and with only 50 particles).

      Consoles have bottlenecks too:
      The PS3 bottleneck was the RSX (half the capability of the preretail models - halved shaderstage), memorybus (halved and capped), southbridge (crapped by a box full of restrictions), GbLAN (using only 4 wires, hanging on the capped SouthBridge), BDRom (9.5MB/s really?)
      I am too lazy to spell you out every console bottleneck in history of gaming, but rest assured each one had one, including your precious N64 with lower speed RAMBUS when you added more to be able to play the game as intended.

      Originally Posted by marty370
      Well considering that Sony has it's main hardware on a single die, whats to bottleneck. CPU/APU/GPU/8gb GDDR5 ram, gonna be very fast moving data by chip transfer rather than slow buses. PS4 is a very effient design.
      Considering it is a lowend A10 originally intended for laptops.... it is bound to have restrictions by design (power/heat/portability). Add too that the way how busses are layed out (sure, memory is shared to all cores, but that also means they are inaccessable at the same time), how branchmiss is handled, the pipelinedepth and the very long small line back to storage devices there always the restriction of lowspeed SATA, platter to head throughput, discsurface to laser throughput, capped GbLAN + shared BT/Wifi and the low speed Internet that most of this planet has.


      Now tell me again about that fantasy/lie/deception that there are no bottlenecks.... Tell me about how they are breaking enginering, science and reinventing the speed of light...

    19. hellsing9
      04-11-2013
      02:44 AM
      19

      Originally Posted by euss
      So Sony developers, of Sony prerelease titles, say with approval of Sony Legal and Sony PR that the Sony console and the Sony devkits, that they own/lease from Sony devnet are working fine for making Sony target audience productions?

      I have news for you : KFC says their chicken is the finest, Mc.D say to use the best beef and PizzaHut say make the best dough...

      Ofcourse everyone knows that, but to let yourself so easily pushed in front of an ongoing marketing campaign is disgusting imo for any site that likes to portrait himself as a "news site".


      Now tell me again about that fantasy/lie/deception that there are no bottlenecks.... Tell me about how they are breaking enginering, science and reinventing the speed of light...
      Anyone can fall for that. Propaganda never ceased to exist nor people never ceased to use it.
      It's just another marketing casualty. Happens, that's business all about.
      Telling a lie about something, repeat it 100 times if you can and eventually someone will believe what you are saying.

      About this being posted on a "news site". It's news, people (users) most of them learned to distinguish a big lie from a little lie. (Which is still a lie though). So far users can "educate" their minds reading between lines but i know that many will not waste time doing that.
      At the end of the day is pretty useless. When something is "too good to be true" you know that's a catch on that situation.

      Also "bottleneck" term is some new punchline for the next-gen consoles.
      Many doesn't know too much about what the term means but saying that in this case with KZ devs don't experienced bottlenecks well...
      They have to sell and what better strategy than this one?.

      So instead of having threads (on a near future) of how to JB PS4 when get released we probably even more threads about "My ps4 has bottleneckZ".
      I give them kudos for being smart enough to tell something that will make such huge impact with their product, obviously telling a lie.

      But all is fair on this "game" and so far there are no rules.

      So pretty much resumes to end-user to pick this lie and buy it or some nice move to lure devs to get PS4 dev kits..etc. It's up to them.

      There are only two things. Truth and lies. Truth is indivisible, hence it cannot recognize itself; anyone who wants to recognize it has to be a lie.
      Originally Posted by Thelostdeathknight
      LOL they can want all they like, PC gaming is king and will remain that way.



      One can hope... one can hope
      No doubt about it but i doubt everybody is so blind to see that obvious attempt to "kick" PC gaming out of the competition.
      Funny though that next-gen consoles are even closer to some High-end PC.
      So being honest you will be playing some High end pc with some nice case with a Sony or MS logo on it.

      How many ****ty ports PC gaming got last year so far?.
      How many times we had to wait 3 months or more to play something on our rigs while got released 4 months earlier on consoles?.

      That's the main reason i switched again to PS3.
      Because i can't play MGS 4 on my rig, yeah you may say stupid justification to buy a PS3 but i love that game.
      Then with Brews and many other things i saw a huge gap to another universe.

      When both next-gen consoles get released and we will experience what's all about, well time will tell.
      Meanwhile we ALL get more speculations, lies and "dirty" moves to hype the massive horde.
      It's up to us to believe it or not.

      But i will repeat this again and is crystal clear that they see PC gaming as a threat.
      Even so they are using pieces of hardware very similar to the one who owns a gaming rig in this community.