[VIRGIN KLM]

Hey I'll explain you why this happens in most launch games.
Make a comparison between let's say Tekken Tag Tournament and Tekken 5 visually.
Big difference right?
Both use pretty like the same resources so why is Tekken 5 still looking better than Tekken Tag Tournament?
Well this is where smart coding and smart developing mechanisms come to the talk.
In this case Tekken is a fighting game, it's relies on acurate moves and timming right?
What is needed for such thing to work? A constant fps right?
Well these 2 games use 2 different ideas of mechanisms how to handle the game not causing fps dropdown.
Note every little info that I write now:
Tekken Tag Tournament (2000) uses a simple technic to mentain smooth constant fps during the whole fighting sequence (and in the whole game possibly) by reserving an ammount of resources just a bit before the thresshold of PS2's hardware limits.
This ensures the game will almost never if ever have a single dropdown in fps but this causes fatigue to the system, hence in this case a very very heavy task for an emulator to handle.
Atleast this was the idea in 2001 how developers can tackle the phenomen of fps drodown.
Now Tekken 5 (2005).
It's 5 years later. PS2 hardware may be the same but smart coding/developing technology really made a huge evolution since then.
Tekken 5 uses now an advanced mechanism that can let PS3 use nearly to double resources than Tekken Tag Tournament and mentain constant fps and gaming stability.
How is that archieved?
The trick is mostly on a mechanism that smartly adapt the needed resources on the fly without needing to preserve resources that PS2 is not going to use them in most cases making the game having more air to breathe visually and less heavy task for PS2 to handle, so the same will apply for emulators.

Another perfect example of such mechanisms is on WWE Smackdown vs RAW games on PS2.
You have a yearly example of the steps developers did since the lauch of the PS2 till today.
Compare this:

to this:


Believe it or not the second one is more easy to emulate since it uses better resources-handling mechanisms than the first.

[baargle]

Originally Posted by Persian McLovin Wow...did you actually read my post? Like, really read it? Of course I know my CECHC has the Graphic Synthesizer GPU! Look how technical my whole post was, I know what I am talking about! Jeez some users on this site... What I am saying is that CECHC's and all the other similar models in the NTSC-U region use semi-software emulation as opposed to full hardware emulation that the previous models had (lack of Emotion Engine CPU). My question to those who have more technical knowledge than me regarding the PS3's PS2 backward compatibility is that the semi-emulated PS2 backwards compatibility was never released in Japan so why do a bunch of Japan-only games work fine on consoles that are a) outside of Japan and b) play 100% brilliantly on them. I'm talking intros, menus, cutscenes, framerate, animations, glitches, freezes...NOTHING. Yet a bunch of popular games released in other regions such as PAL and NTSC-U have awful emulation such as Tekken Tag Tournament which is a launch game! Also I have just played Sega Rally Championship 1995 which is a port of the Saturn/arcade game of the same name and came as a PS2 release alongside a Limited Editon version of Sega Rally 2006 again released only in Japan. It plays PERFECTLY, even in 480p mode which I again thought would cause problems but as above for Initial D Special Stage, there's nothing wrong with this game. I just cannot figure this out and hope someone in the know has some answers for my findings. Peace.

Technical?

Sounds like you don't have a clue. Different games use different resources, all PS2 (generally speaking) will run a game with the same level of performance. Newer games (generally) will run slower than older games, use more resources. When emulating a game, things change, the emulator might have certain functions more optimized than others. So the strengths and weaknesses change, i.e you may find games that run at 60fps on the PS2 run at 20fps under a ps3 emulator. You may also find that games that run at 30fps on the PS2 can still run at 30fps...

But if you didn't automatically assume and know this, then you will never understand anything technical.

[Persian McLovin]

Originally Posted by baargle Technical? Sounds like you don't have a clue. Different games use different resources, all PS2 (generally speaking) will run a game with the same level of performance. Newer games (generally) will run slower than older games, use more resources. When emulating a game, things change, the emulator might have certain functions more optimized than others. So the strengths and weaknesses change, i.e you may find games that run at 60fps on the PS2 run at 20fps under a ps3 emulator. You may also find that games that run at 30fps on the PS2 can still run at 30fps... But if you didn't automatically assume and know this, then you will never understand anything technical.

This is actually insane, I cannot believe that was a reply to someone who also didn't get the point of my post and now you haven't either...no disrespect but you're a moron.

I have no idea why people are diving into the ins-and-outs of Tekken Tag Tournament as I only gave a random example and is not the fundamentals behind this topic!

Jesus Christ I shall try and say it again what my point is. Step 1: There is NO, I repeat NO software-emulated PS2 backward compatibility on ANY Japanese PS3...please tell me you get that first simple point!

Step 2: With that in context, that means that a Japanese game that runs on a software-emulated PS3 for its PS2 games (ie, ZERO Japanese PS3s) is absolutely pointless! Why? Because unless you have an illegal modification involved such as a Cobra USB dongle that gives owners of software-emulated PS3s region-free functionality, you would never use a Japanese game that is software-emulated because IT HAS NEVER EXISTED IN JAPAN!

Step 3: Bottom line is...what is the point of having a Japanese-only game running perfectly on software-emulated BC PS3s when a softare-emulated BC Japanese PS3 has NEVER been developed!

My God I have no idea why some of you cannot grasp this simple concept and then on top of that you have some Einstein's coming in and talking about specific games...I AM NOT BOTHERED ABOUT THAT IT WAS AN EXAMPLE! My beef was purely with the Japanese-exclusive games running on non-Japanese systems that would never be known without the use of the Cobra dongle.

If someone replies and doesn't understand this on a basic level, then I recommend you go and post in the "high IQ determines if you can post thread" because you need to plead your case.

Originally Posted by VIRGIN KLM Hey I'll explain you why this happens in most launch games. Make a comparison between let's say Tekken Tag Tournament and Tekken 5 visually. Big difference right? Both use pretty like the same resources so why is Tekken 5 still looking better than Tekken Tag Tournament? Well this is where smart coding and smart developing mechanisms come to the talk. In this case Tekken is a fighting game, it's relies on acurate moves and timming right? What is needed for such thing to work? A constant fps right? Well these 2 games use 2 different ideas of mechanisms how to handle the game not causing fps dropdown. Note every little info that I write now: Tekken Tag Tournament (2000) uses a simple technic to mentain smooth constant fps during the whole fighting sequence (and in the whole game possibly) by reserving an ammount of resources just a bit before the thresshold of PS2's hardware limits. This ensures the game will almost never if ever have a single dropdown in fps but this causes fatigue to the system, hence in this case a very very heavy task for an emulator to handle. Atleast this was the idea in 2001 how developers can tackle the phenomen of fps drodown. Now Tekken 5 (2005). It's 5 years later. PS2 hardware may be the same but smart coding/developing technology really made a huge evolution since then. Tekken 5 uses now an advanced mechanism that can let PS3 use nearly to double resources than Tekken Tag Tournament and mentain constant fps and gaming stability. How is that archieved? The trick is mostly on a mechanism that smartly adapt the needed resources on the fly without needing to preserve resources that PS2 is not going to use them in most cases making the game having more air to breathe visually and less heavy task for PS2 to handle, so the same will apply for emulators. Another perfect example of such mechanisms is on WWE Smackdown vs RAW games on PS2. You have a yearly example of the steps developers did since the lauch of the PS2 till today. Compare this: to this: Believe it or not the second one is more easy to emulate since it uses better resources-handling mechanisms than the first.

I know all of this bro but thanks for your reply! My main beef hasn't been with select titles and how they perform, it's why are some games (Japanese-only games) perform on software-emulated BC PS3s when the owners of those consoles would never get anything out of them as the PS3s PS2 emulation is region locked and that a software-emulated BC Japanese PS3 has never been created! It's a contradiction and does not make sense to have Japanese games performing when they've never been needed until now that we have Cobra USB to remove the restrictions placed by Sony in the first place.

Peace.

[VIRGIN KLM]

It's because the number coded on these games of this region is registered on the PS3 as region-free.

[Elyssion]

Originally Posted by Persian McLovin Step 2: With that in context, that means that a Japanese game that runs on a software-emulated PS3 for its PS2 games (ie, ZERO Japanese PS3s) is absolutely pointless! Why? Because unless you have an illegal modification involved such as a Cobra USB dongle that gives owners of software-emulated PS3s region-free functionality, you would never use a Japanese game that is software-emulated because IT HAS NEVER EXISTED IN JAPAN! Peace.

You are forgetting a couple of important points here:
- In the moment that programmers are told they must code a ps2 partial emulator, the commerial people may not know yet if certain model will be launched in japan or not. A ps2 emulator is not done in a week!
- Sony firmware programmers are japanese, it is normal that they test lot of japanese games.

[Persian McLovin]

Originally Posted by Elyssion You are forgetting a couple of important points here: - In the moment that programmers are told they must code a ps2 partial emulator, the commerial people may not know yet if certain model will be launched in japan or not. A ps2 emulator is not done in a week! - Sony firmware programmers are japanese, it is normal that they test lot of japanese games.

This is what I was thinking as well...I just wanted to rant against Sony for favouring really random titles like the perfect emulation of an Initial D game and a limited edition Sega Saturn/arcade port from 1994 released as a PS2 game!

Thank you for understanding though lol, finally some logic and a good answer along with Virgin KLM's insight.

Second part of all this is...do you think there are unreleased emulator files that could allow more games to play played/performace increases like the hacked emulator profiles for JTAG 360's? Although they're from 360 devkits aren't they and the comparable counterpart to that was TEST machines which don't have extra PS2 emulation files within their respective debug firmwares, correct?

Oh well...maybe one day perfection for all models could be achieved although I doubt it.

[VIRGIN KLM]

Originally Posted by Persian McLovin Second part of all this is...do you think there are unreleased emulator files that could allow more games to play played/performace increases like the hacked emulator profiles for JTAG 360's? Although they're from 360 devkits aren't they and the comparable counterpart to that was TEST machines which don't have extra PS2 emulation files within their respective debug firmwares, correct? Oh well...maybe one day perfection for all models could be achieved although I doubt it.

Well it's not like we can say yes or no, it was years obvious and Sony recently proved it! xD
PS2 classics rely on this function/idea, profiled emulation.
Microsoft was the innovator on this idea, since the target hardware is only one specific hardware and not many possible, they could optimize the emulation for those games on this hardware.

Also, no, ALL TEST consoles include ALL of the ps2/psp/psx emu files (and all the retail files even though stuff are disabled, this is an other history,(think of it like DLCs that are on a disk and you unlock them via activation), whether they are backwards compatible or not.
This is where Cobra relies on the PS2 feature on non BC consoles, bringing a TEST(2.50)/Debug function on retail consoles.
The difference is something in the kernel and the vsh.
Also take a good look at this:
http://www.ps3devwiki.com/index.php?title=SKU_Models

Btw, I played today Crash Bandicoot Wrath Of Cortex and Twinsanity on a console that lacks EE. The emulation of WOC (CD game) was perfect but on Twinsanity (DVD) may seem good but what going wrong is not obvious to the naked eye/visualy. Game tends to have a bad handling on the autosave system causing you constantly after the save autosave to PS3 being unable to overwrite the previous savegame and corrupt the savegame. PS2 emulation hangs forever, you have to reset the game and when you load the game freezes again, the savegame is obviously corrupt to a type of corruption PS3 don't recognize it as corrupted data. You have to play the game and manually save it. So is that story ringing a bell? The most commoun problems with consoles that lack EE is access to memmory card, so does the non-BC at all consoles that also lack the EE. EE seems to play a huge part on the I/O handling of the emulation even though there are situations that PS3 cannot digest and fail compared to a non EE BC console.

Another thing I wanted to add is that I completelly forgot that I had a Kingdom Hearts 2 (E3 Preview Beta Build) DVD that appears to be Japanese regioned. I've tried to put it on that PS3 I said above and it worked!(different region).
I turned out that I was correct.
Japanese tittles and debug games (they don't have a gamecode like SLUS000.00) use the same territory flag as the flag PS3 recognises as region free.

[pereb27]

Originally Posted by VIRGIN KLM Well it's not like we can say yes or no, it was years obvious and Sony recently proved it! xD PS2 classics rely on this function/idea, profiled emulation. Microsoft was the innovator on this idea, since the target hardware is only one specific hardware and not many possible, they could optimize the emulation for those games on this hardware. Also, no, ALL TEST consoles include ALL of the ps2/psp/psx emu files (and all the retail files even though stuff are disabled, this is an other history,(think of it like DLCs that are on a disk and you unlock them via activation), whether they are backwards compatible or not. This is where Cobra relies on the PS2 feature on non BC consoles, bringing a TEST(2.50)/Debug function on retail consoles. The difference is something in the kernel and the vsh. Also take a good look at this: http://www.ps3devwiki.com/index.php?title=SKU_Models

PS2 softemu is present on retail firmware, just disabled.

[VIRGIN KLM]

Originally Posted by pereb27 PS2 softemu is present on retail firmware, just disabled.

Isn't that superlame?
There is something in lv2 (and vsh I think) that block us to use it.(Well, minus the payload, but technically is not important if PS3 can do it in Factory Mode which no payload is loaded)
I wonder what?
Also I compared the pst and ps2 emu decrypted elf files on a hex comparison program, it looks like they know how this works, some function strings are modified.
I need to get the Cobra Dongle and go to peek/poke and see what's going on there while I insert a PS2 Disc, the whole procedure that runs background while PS3 recognizes the PS2 Format disc for the vsh behaviour...
Also a HEX comparison on lv2 decrypted elfs between their CFW and 3.55 OFW wouldn't hurt..

[pereb27]

From what I can gather, the pst self is used when starting iso from HDD, and ps2 self is when starting disc (burned or original). I'm pretty sure of this because back when Cobra was on 3.41, it would replace a system file to get PS2 backups from HDD working, and doing this would make it unable to run discs. In 3.55 they made it so that both were possible, most likely with those pst selfs they made.
It should be pretty easy to disable burned game security checks for PS1/PS2, but much harder to get it to run off HDD.

As for PS2 soft-emu disabled being lame, it is because they were unable to finish that emulator, and it is not working properly. They're a company, they can't exactly offer something extremely buggy... oh wait they did already with gx_emu.