[RIP-Felix]

I originally posted this thread in the general help section, but got nothing. Lets try here.

I am planning to add a temp sensor to my Gamestop refirbished 60GB (CECHA01). I want to be able to set an alarm so I can let it cool down before it displays an overheat warning and/or shuts down. Also the frequency of the alarm going off should help me decide when to clean it out and perform general maintenance. Ultimately this is to prevent the YLOD. I think Gamestop should be required to tell me if this console was revived from it.

This is the temp sensor I was thinking of:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Akust-Thermo...I-pr-3003.html

My questions are:
1) If I decide to use the fan control function on the controller and leave the motherboards fan pin connector empty, will the PS3 return a general hardware error or just boot regardless?

2) It requires a 12v power source. Am I right on the the following bluray power connector pinouts? Pin 1 (black) = +12v, pin 2 & 3 (grey) = Ground, and pin 4 (grey) = +5v.

3) what are the themal limits of the RSX and CPU for the CECHA01? Which operates the hottest? I read that the Cell has a thermal limit of 85C (185 F). But from watching videos the RSX seems to get hotter. What is it's themal limit, the same as the cell? I'm mainly worried about motherboard flexing, thermal expansion/contraction on those tin solder connections over time, and what temperatures I need to prevent this; Any ideas? Also I want a complete temp stepping threshold for when the ps3 automatically kicks the fan speed up a level (eg. level 1 = PS3 turned on 0C-?C, level 2 = ?C-?C... and so on to level 5). If you could point me in the right direction that would be great. If not and you have temp sensors on your 60GB CECHA01 please post your measurements at each fan level you can reach. They should show a pattern that we can extrapolate the stepping temps from. My hypothesis is: If it idles about 35C, tops out at 85C and there are five linear steps, then it should be 85C-35C (185F - 95F) = 50C (90F) / 5 steps = 10C (18 F). This means you should see the PS3 step up to higher Fan RPM every 10C or every 18 F if my hypothesis is right. If not, either the stepping is not linear and/or the the thermal limit is not 85C.

4) The probe can detect up to 90C and the alarm can be set to as high as 80C. I know that the core of the chip will get hotter than the sensor will read, depending on where I place it. So I am wondering how much to buffer the alarm setting. If I buffer it 10C I should set the alarm at 75C (assuming the thermal limit is 85C). I wish there was a way to read the actual thermosistor on the PS3 itself and interpret the jargon. So unless the trolls out there can find the actual stepping temps we may have to use some estimating skills from anecdotal measurements.

[Mr.Dutch]

the answer to 1. : the ps3 will work even when the fan is not connected.
2. you are correct on the pinout, but why not use the 12V from the fan connector.

3 and 4 are not my expertise.

[RIP-Felix]

"...but why not use the 12V from the fan connector?"

Because I was not sure if having the motherboards fan pin open would cause a hardware error. If it did then I would need to keep the fan connected, and tap into the bluray drive for power (because it's in a easier to access location). But now that I know it does not I can just make a 3 pin to molex adapter (using your diagram and leaving out the PWM control) to power the monitor. Then the fan control function can ramp the fan speed automatically based on the alarm setting I choose, and not the Sony default values. Should be as good or better than Killerbugs hidden fan control mod. No need to cut anything, plug and play, the ability to set an alarm so you know when to take a break, and an external display of the temperature that is hidden under the translucent top cover, SICK! Thanks for the info.
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The Cell and RSX bonding techniques are optimized to reduce thermal stress on these components, and thoes temperatures are only intended to be achieved once in its standard lifetime (from manufacturing to the first YLOD). Seeing as 85C is much lower than the melting point of the tin solder used to bond it to the motherboaed, I would say it's in the ballpark, but 85C is way higher than say a conputer CPU's thermal max. It makes me uncomfortable setting the alarm at 75C. Especially when all I have to go on is an arbitraray mention in some online forum. Maybe I'll set it to the highest temperature achieved during 1 hour of online COD:MW2 (with new Artic Cooling MX-4 applied, allowing it a few hours to spread out and burn in, which it says is not necessary, but I may as well do anyway). That should give me a reasonably safe high temp don't you gus think?

[Stiltz85]

This is something I am also wanting to know, I am currently installing a water cooling system in my CECHA01 and it has temp sensors. I would like to know what to set the alarm to for both the RSX and the CPU. I was thinking about using the third sensor for just the case temp or possibly the power supply temp.

[baargle]

Your idea is not a good one OP, YLOD is caused by the heating\cooling cycle of lead free solder. It comes from the same origin as RROD on the Xbox 360, it is NOT fixable or preventable due to the layout of the motherboard and placement of solder joints. That solder will get hot and cool down no matter how hot and cold you can keep the CPU from going.

The only way to fix it is to buy a new console. It cannot be stopped. If a console has been bought refurbished in the 60GB BC variety, you can bet that it has already had a YLOD fix done to it.

In which case, you are doomed to a broken 60GB PS3 within months. YLOD fix isn't permanent and buys you 1-6 months more use - absolute maximum and inbetween those months you will have to apply the fix again at increasingly frequent periods. Until it will no longer work.

Seriously. Fix it, then sell it on ebay or a pawn broker.

No disrespect but surely you remember when 60GBs were like hens teeth? Now they are easy to find....I wonder why.
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Originally Posted by Stiltz85 This is something I am also wanting to know, I am currently installing a water cooling system in my CECHA01 and it has temp sensors. I would like to know what to set the alarm to for both the RSX and the CPU. I was thinking about using the third sensor for just the case temp or possibly the power supply temp.

Temp will reach peak very quickly on any CPU, unless airflow in and out of where the CPU is poor, in which case it will take longer.

I don't know the maximum recommended for a Cell CPU (have a google) but computer processors are normally considered safe between 75c as a rough guide with measurement taken from the CPU diode (not your own sensor, but from inside the CPU).

The problem is though....

That your problem isn't the CPU

See previous post. The whole notion is entirely invalid and will not help your PS3 last longer by any significant amount of time (if at all).
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Originally Posted by RIP-Felix "...but why not use the 12V from the fan connector?" Because I was not sure if having the motherboards fan pin open would cause a hardware error. If it did then I would need to keep the fan connected, and tap into the bluray drive for power (because it's in a easier to access location). But now that I know it does not I can just make a 3 pin to molex adapter (using your diagram and leaving out the PWM control) to power the monitor. Then the fan control function can ramp the fan speed automatically based on the alarm setting I choose, and not the Sony default values. Should be as good or better than Killerbugs hidden fan control mod. No need to cut anything, plug and play, the ability to set an alarm so you know when to take a break, and an external display of the temperature that is hidden under the translucent top cover, SICK! Thanks for the info. ************* [ - Post Merged - ] ************* The Cell and RSX bonding techniques are optimized to reduce thermal stress on these components, and thoes temperatures are only intended to be achieved once in its standard lifetime (from manufacturing to the first YLOD). Seeing as 85C is much lower than the melting point of the tin solder used to bond it to the motherboaed, I would say it's in the ballpark, but 85C is way higher than say a conputer CPU's thermal max. It makes me uncomfortable setting the alarm at 75C. Especially when all I have to go on is an arbitraray mention in some online forum. Maybe I'll set it to the highest temperature achieved during 1 hour of online COD:MW2 (with new Artic Cooling MX-4 applied, allowing it a few hours to spread out and burn in, which it says is not necessary, but I may as well do anyway). That should give me a reasonably safe high temp don't you gus think?

How on earth are you measuring the CPU temperature? It isn't possible to make and apples to apples comparison with a desktop CPU TJmax because their measurement is inside the CPU and also even to get a safe comfortable measurment for you to set the alarm at is impossible due to variables you cannot control or set.

Would just like to point out that my previous post stating that 75c is well within TJmax of desktop CPU is entirely correct for CURRENT desktop CPUs. That would mean ones from 40nm down to 22nm intel\amd ones.

The CPU in the PS3 60GB is something ridiculously large like 90-130nm - so comparison isn't valid to be honest.

But I'll tell you straight now absolute TJmax on current CPUs is actually about 90-100c - this is the temperature a CPU will shut itself down if you have it enabled to do so at it's maximum, there will not be any damage done to a CPU run at that temperature for short periods of time like a few days.

Solder melts at roughly 200c-ish.

Solder melting isn't your problem, it's the solder becoming brittle that is the problem.

Your temperature sensor is a complete waste of time because if you set it to 75c to produce and alarm and attached it to the CPU packaging you will find that inside the CPU, assuming you hear an alarm will be 10s of degrees above that.

[Stiltz85]

Quite the nae sayer, I am not worried about my solder heating up nor am I concerned about it having prior YLOD issues. My CECHA01 was just opened a few days ago and I only turned it on for about 2 minutes to check functionality after a 6 year period spent in my closet.
Needless to say, my Playstation 3 is brand new and I have no intention on it overheating.
I have already started modifications to it to prevent said "Heat issues" by installing a water cooling system and extra fan withing the case. I just wanted to know what a good temperature for the system components were. I don't need you to tell me that my system is destined to fail because it wont, I've made sure of it.

[RIP-Felix]

Thank you for your input baargle.

You are right about the tin solder being the root of this problem. To clarify, it is the differing coefficient of thermal expansion of the materials surrounding the joint, and the solder itself, which causes the YLOD. As the motherboard and solder expand and contract from thermal cycling, they flex ever so slightly in/away form one another. Eventually the solder will loose its elasticity, or ability to expand and contract with the motherboard, and be unable to endure it. This causes a micro fracture to form, and a circuit to open. Lead-Tin solder has greater elasticity and thus lasts longer before wearing out. To put it simply, the greater the temperature differential during thermal cycles, the greater the flexing and thus strain put on the joint. The sooner the solder looses its elasticity, the sooner a YLOD occurs; Plain and simple.

Stilts85:
I think I just answered my own question about how high to set the alarm; As low as you can stand! I think I will go with the temp after 1 hr of COD:MW2. That should represent a moderate-high load that is not easily achieved during movie playback, internet streaming, casual gaming, etc. If I go over that I should probably take a break for health reasons anyway. You could do the same with your setup. Abviously your temps will be lower. But you get the idea.

The proof that heat reduction prolong the life of the solder connection is in the number of RSX vs. Cell failures. Most online repair shops that offer reball services don't offer it for the cell because the RSX is almost always the culprit. Why? Because it runs hotter.

I asked a popular online repair shop in Florida if they would be willing to do a reball on both, here is what they told me: "We do not offer re-ball services for the CBE CPU. The re-balling process is traumatic on the motherboard, and while the procedure you requested would effectively bullet-proof the two main processors, the lifespan of the board’s other components would be impacted." This means heat in the rannge of 220C after initial placment is inhearantly risky and that they only do it once, to the RSX. Remember they loose money if they can't fix it, so they have an incentive to send back working units. If they don't do the CPU, it's because it in not the cause of most YLODs..

The best case scenario is to lower the temperature differential of each thermal cycle and put off the first YLOD for as long as possible, and then reball both the CPU and RSX with leaded solder, assuming you can find someone with the proper equipment, skill, and is willing to do it.

This leads me to another point. A good professional reflow melts the solder in the presence of flux and only applies enough heat to completely liquefy the solder and reform a solid connection with the motherboard. The purpose of the flux it to re-add some elasticity to the worn out solder, but it's only a "stop gap" measure (literally). Unless the solder is removed and replaced with new solder the problem will occur again, and sooner each time around until the solder is completely useless. At this point it must be replaced. Sadly, by then it is usually too late for a reball. The heating form all those reflows is "traumatic on motherboard components" (like the thermisistor) and a reball may no longer be possible. Even if you did a reball to begin with your PS3 will eventually die.

Let me be clear, every electronic device will kill itself eventually. And just like us, a PS3’s life span can only be prolonged. Sony used to be good about making products that last and more effective cooling and/or lead-tin solder would have prolonged the PS3’s lifespan, but not grant it eternal life (might make a good tag). Besides 6yrs is a long time in electronics. If your computer is that old you are thinkig about buying a new one. It's the popularity and features unavailable in PS3s today that make us desperate to resurect our beloved “it almost does everything” device. You wouldn't resurest a 6yr old computer, would you? The answer is yes, if it played PS1, 2 and 3 titles on it, or it's woth a bunch of mony restored, or got you beer form the fridge! But it doesn't, it isn't, and the technology doesn't exist yet. So you buy a new one.

Rant:
Tin solder, banned in Europe (thus Sony’s decision to go lead free), may be the more environmentally responsible choice, if you believe the detrimental environmental influence of lead outweighs the longevity of products and thus higher volume of waste generated in the same amount of time. Electronic consumers are forced to make a sacrifice they don’t want to make in the name of “progress,” when all you need to do is recycle your old electronics. Maybe Europe will ban car batteries next, and battery technology will take off. Imagine that!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I've covered this now. Please no more cause of YLOD posts. You can read all about it everywhere on the internet. And everyone here has had enough.

[RIP-Felix]

Stiltz85:
A word of caution. Use distilled water or even better use glycerine. Don't forget to add a fluid stabilizer that prevents mold, or change the fluid regularly. Change your hoses every 2 yrs to prevent cracking. Careful about combining two different types of metal in the system so as to avoid pitting. With a liquid cooling solution I would be more worried about the potential for a leak than the YLOD. You probably have done your reasearch if you are already moving forward. So I expect you know what I am talking about. Be sure you can't get away with another solution, and be careful, ok. It's your system though, have fun with it.

I wonder if anyone has tried adding TECs between the chips and heatsink. as long as they can pull away heat as fast as the chips can produce it, they could theoretically keep the temperatures at ambiant, with the right electronics and programming. Oh, I feel a google quest coming on...
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Found some good info. Definatly would want to keep the temp aboave ambiant because of the potential for condensation, of course. The size of the TEC would need to be smaller than the chip it is cooling. That way there is no overhang that could get below ambient. You would need a temp probe close to the cooling side to be sure it doesn't get below ambiant, and need to buffer the set piont so it never does, even if your reading is off by a few degrees. Because these things are not that efficient you would need a better heatsink for the heating side capable of handling the extra heat. Lastly you would need an automatic voltage conrtoller that supplies more or less power to the TEC as needed to maintain a set point temperature. Assuming all of this were possable it would be the most ideal cooling solution for this type of solder connection. It would effectively reduce the thermal stress to a minamal level. the heatsink would change in temperature not the chip and therefor the solder connections. No more YLOD. Again if a TEC small and powerful enough exists, then you would have to come up with an electronic solution for the voltage control (Maybe an arduino, I would have to talk to a friend who does that sort of thing).

[RIP-Felix]

I am thinking of using a different temp sensor now.

This one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811999175

I have one on my HTPC and have never had an issue with it. It has 3 sensors and the ability to control 3 fans according to the coresponding sensor reading (automatic only, unfortunatly). I would probably use it to display CPU = Cell broadband, VGA = RSX, and Case = either the power supply or the temp of exaust air. The lcd itself is compact and might be able to fit in the space between the top cover and the card reader (hopefully without removing it), if I cut a rectangular hole in the inner plastic casing. The main reason I'm leaning this way is because the sensors are very thin with just a small bump at the tip. They might be small enough to fit under the heat spreader of the RSX and Cell providing a more accurate reading of the die temps, something baargle pointed out. I worry the LCD screen might not be bright enough to be seen through the top cover, but I will check and get back.
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I just checked. It is not very bright, but it's bright enough to see in a lit room when you're close enough to read the temps. So it will do. There is 1/2 inch of dead space above the card reader for it to go. There are three standoffs that provide support for the card reader and it looks like 1 is in the way, maybe 2. They will need to be shaved off some on one side (not necessarily completly removed). I will start the mod soon, perhaps I will make a tutorial. I will have to remember to take pictures.

I just checked the temp controller in my HTPC, also taking the chance to clean the dust out. It is bigger than I was thinking. It's maybe 1" thick. There are 3 voltage regulators for the fans and 3 sensor pins that can be bent over to make it thinner, bringing it to aprox 3/4" total. If I cut a hole in the top casing and lay the lcd directly against the inside of the top cover then I can gleen a little more clearance. There might be just enough room. If I have to, I will take the card reader out, but I don't want to reduce functionality. We'll see.

[delukard]

@baargle That was a nice read, Sometimes i wondered why i got a 60gb ps3(4 years ago), i don't even play ps1-ps2 games lol.