[Wolfie708]

Originally Posted by General Plot There are sites you can buy PSN cards from. Buy a US card and make a US PSN account, redeem the card on there and voila: you can buy a PS+ subscription. And I'm sorry, but not being able to have games is not "suffering".

Correct it is not, but I am curious to know if you have ever used any game or software that was a pirate copy?

If you have not then you are almost unique in this day and age, but if you have then all your arguments against piracy and a console being hacked fall flat on their face.

[synce]

The 3DS has actually been hacked by the Chinese, they're already selling carts but they only contain one ROM and can't be reflashed yet. It is taking longer for hacks to release this gen but where there's a will there's a way.

10 years ago I'd have been completely against piracy but these days with things like online passes, day 1 DLC, and crippling DRM I'm struggling to find a reason to support any publisher. If the game industry was wiped out tomorrow I wouldn't be too upset.

[GregoryRasputin]

Originally Posted by Wolfie708 Correct it is not, but I am curious to know if you have ever used any game or software that was a pirate copy? If you have not then you are almost unique in this day and age, but if you have then all your arguments against piracy and a console being hacked fall flat on their face.

Of course he has, there isn't a person on this forum that hasn't in some way pirated something, be it a Snes rom, a PC app, an iPhone app, an Android app, or a movie, music or premium eBook , there is no one on this thread innocent of any one of those and if anyone on this thread claims they have never done any of those, then they are a f*cking liar.

Also on the fact of Emulators, if you are anyway involved in creating an Emulator, like it or not you are contributing to piracy, even if it is inadvertently, it is still contributing as the vast majority of Emulator users use those Emulators with pirated software.

[ViperMM]

Originally Posted by smf The xbox 360 has encrypted ram & it's seven years old. If they make ALSR mandatory across all modules including the OS then ROP will be useless too. If the memory is encrypted well then you won't have access to a memory dump to disassemble the code, so you won't even know what code you could jump to. Nobody knows how to "rock systems like these" as they aren't out yet. I think it's laughable that people think that someone will magically hack it & stick it to the man, when there is still no 3DS homebrew & DSi homebrew is ........... I'd expect to see Wii-U native homebrew before the PS4 is hacked.

The 360 was a very well designed console from a security stand point, however I doubt any Sony console will bear resemblance to any of it's security. Also encrypted ram is easily defeated too with proper know how. As to your ASLR argument there are quite a few decent white papers and even public tools to defeat it. My favorite is this one.
http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~dbrumley/c.../docs/aslr.pdf
As for the Ps4 not being out, it sure is out. Dev-kits shipped months ago. And to your 3ds idea (not sure how a hand held is related but hey) they have flash carts. If someone wanted to program something other than iso loading on 3ds they could. I would also expect to see Wii-U root before the Ps4 since both it's dev-kits and console in general were released way before the Ps4 launch. The main point you should take away from this is unless there is going to be a serious anti tampering mechanism (which i sincerely doubt) these consoles are going to be taken apart and ripped to shreds. That goes for both Ps4 and next gen Xbox. I believe that even with the Ps3 any n00b level person will have a hard time with this as embedded systems as crazy as these have some what of a learning curve. That said I have seen people who have made developments on this scene and I know from other places. Some of these people will make it look easy. It's not like it would be hard for anyone who has access to this hardware to exploit it. What the real question is what should be done with the hacked consoles and how can one keep sanity amongst a scene which is like a pack of wolves.
EDIT:!jizz GrigoriRazputin

[etertay]

the ps4..being similar to the pc architecture...may be more easy to hack.

[Theeze]

Originally Posted by etertay the ps4..being similar to the pc architecture...may be more easy to hack.

Have you not been paying attention? It's not going to be easy at all, but if it were to get hacked it would be very easy to write homebrew and port things over from the pc side.

X86 doesn't automatically mean it's going to be hacked in less time or anything.

[smf]

Originally Posted by ViperMM The 360 was a very well designed console from a security stand point, however I doubt any Sony console will bear resemblance to any of it's security. Also encrypted ram is easily defeated too with proper know how.

You previously said that encrypted ram couldn't be done, then when I pointed out that it had been you think it's easily defeated anyway.
There are plenty of memory encryption systems that have survived longer than ten years before being hacked.

Originally Posted by ViperMM As for the Ps4 not being out, it sure is out. Dev-kits shipped months ago. And to your 3ds idea (not sure how a hand held is related but hey) they have flash carts. If someone wanted to program something other than iso loading on 3ds they could.

Devkits aren't the same as the final retail hardware. The first devkit was a graphics card, the next was a custom PC. It's getting closer to final hardware but you have no idea what is going to happen by then.

3ds carts are basically clones of the real carts. It was possible to do that with DSi as well. But all you can do is provide the same signed data that was on the original cart. There is no homebrew opportunity at all right now. It's like saying that hacking any optical disc system is possible, all you need is a pressing plant.

Your best bet is to ask Nintendo to sign your homebrew. Otherwise you could try factoring the keys, if you even knew how the security worked. Then hope you're done by the heat death of the universe.

Originally Posted by ViperMM As to your ASLR argument there are quite a few decent white papers and even public tools to defeat it. My favorite is this one. http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~dbrumley/c.../docs/aslr.pdf

That white paper covers Privilege escalation where you already can store files and execute them, they are less relevant for a hypervisor based system that doesn't allow you to run any of your own code. None of the OS specific items are going to be relevant either. Some of them talk about storing code in BSS segments, which obviously means they assume DEP is turned off. They discuss protections that can be enabled but aren't by default in Linux for compatibility, but that is not an issue for a new console. Other protections are disabled for performance reasons, but that is also less of a problem if you can just phone up your CPU manufacturer and ask them to add some new technology for you.

Five year old white papers are unlikely to be any help in hacking the PS4.

[General Plot]

Originally Posted by GregoryRasputin Of course he has, there isn't a person on this forum that hasn't in some way pirated something, be it a Snes rom, a PC app, an iPhone app, an Android app, or a movie, music or premium eBook , there is no one on this thread innocent of any one of those and if anyone on this thread claims they have never done any of those, then they are a f*cking liar.

Regardless on what your view of people is, it doesn't mean you know everything there is know about each person. I made a conscious decision back during the days of napster that piracy was just something I was not going to be a part of. Every piece of software or media that I own or have ever owned has been in my possession legitimately. Piracy is a major pet peeve of mine and always has been. I would have thought for as long as you've known me that you would know that much about me. You can't just claim that because I'm involved in this community that is automatically proof of guilt.

Originally Posted by GregoryRasputin Also on the fact of Emulators, if you are anyway involved in creating an Emulator, like it or not you are contributing to piracy, even if it is inadvertently, it is still contributing as the vast majority of Emulator users use those Emulators with pirated software.

PCSX2 is a project that would exist whether or not I was part of it. In fact, I didn't get into it until the version 0.7 days (which is almost 4 years after it's initial release). And with an emulator project, you don't get to choose who can use it and how they use it. You either make it available or you don't.

[smf]

Originally Posted by General Plot And with an emulator project, you don't get to choose who can use it and how they use it. You either make it available or you don't.

Which goes back to DRM. While there may be people who want to bypass DRM for reasons they feel are legitimate (owning a cd/dvd/bluray/game etc). If the DRM didn't exist then there would be a lot more people pirating.

I would imagine that they would rather they didn't have to invest in DRM, but it is necessary for their business model. The only other option would be to not produce music/movies/games.

[GregoryRasputin]

Originally Posted by General Plot Regardless on what your view of people is, it doesn't mean you know everything there is know about each person.

Im not claiming to know everything about each person, im just making an observation on your claim about piracy being quite high in the scene and responding with the fact that no one in this thread is innocent of having some sort of pirated file in their possession.

Originally Posted by General Plot Every piece of software or media that I own or have ever owned has been in my possession legitimately. Piracy is a major pet peeve of mine and always has been.

So you are saying that you have never downloaded a Rom for Snes, Nes, Mega Drive, C64 or any of the Emulators that use Roms ?
Because if you have never used an Emulator or Rom, then you've missed out on a lot of fun, i personally don't download games for the PS3, Xbox 360 or Wii, but i am guilty of downloading Roms for Snes, Mega Drive and a few other Emulators and i find it extremely hard to believe that there would be anyone in this entire forum who hasn't.

Originally Posted by General Plot I would have thought for as long as you've known me that you would know that much about me.

I have never seen you use a Pirated PS2 game on your Emulator, but i do find it extremely hard to believe that you have never used another Emulator in your entire life, one that requires roms


Im not judging you, just trying to make sense of your statement about not wanting the PS4 to be hacked, which is something i never thought you would say.