[DuskTillDawn]

Originally Posted by alienkid That's called the Federal Reserve here in America. But add that ability to have a chance to compete vs once upon a time my race wasn't even considered, I'll take. I know plenty of decendants from slaves that have become successful. From my very 'hood'. I know plenty of immigrants (good friends and in my opinion, way smarter than MOST Americans) who have come here and won at the American Dream like it was childs play. Being rich or wanting to be rich, I'm not talking Buffet, Gates, Jobs money, is a good thing. What's bad about that? It just seems that those that want to impose on that, want to be the "judge and jury" of the rich. Plenty of societies have fallen by that very exact theory. What happen to the core values of being an adult or adultminded, pre-18 for the youth, that became millionaires. That would make them just as worst as though that's hoarding the 'so-called' money. Zietgeist was entertaining. America was built on theivery. Always has been. But when you compare it to IRAN, CHINA, CUBA etc, etc....I'll take USA all-day.

I agree with you on this, this is a great documentary, funny enough I was watching it again last night...

[CrashSerious]

I present for you, a list of their 'demands'... (from here)

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.


I didn't necessarily disagree with the trade tariffs concept, that is until they went freaking nuts. A $20 an hour minimum wage? Are you people stupid? Have you any idea what that would do to the cost of a McDonalds Big Mac Extra value meal (not to mention very literally EVERYTHING ELSE!)

Lets take that as an example, The price of a big mack extra value meal has very nearly doubled in the last 15 years. In that same time frame, so have the wages of the minimum wage worker. Guess what??? No one got rich, they just spend MORE money on everything.

... and don't get me started the fact that a unskilled worker making minimum wage just simply compressed the wages of everyone else. Do you think that if minimum wage workers are getting a $10-13 raise for nothing that the people making $20 are getting one too? NO. They are simply put into the minimum wage category. Despite the effort they have put in and skill they have. But that's ok, right?? Hint: If you make less than $30 an hour and have a brain, you should be against all this for THIS alone.


Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.


Insurance companies are part of the problem, but so are the frivolous lawsuits. Creating a single payer healthcare system run by the government is NOT going to solve the problem. You though HMO's were bad, wait till a government bureaucrat has to approve your appendectomy. Now I see most of the people are in the United States that are coming up with this drivel, USA-- there is a reason people go to the USA to get healthcare. It's not because there aren't Doctors in their country. It's because they can GET HEALTHCARE there.



Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.



Awesome, why would I ever leave my family again? </sarcasm> Give me a break, I'm not even going to respond to this beyond saying-- where is my motivation to work at McDonalds for a mere $20 an hour slaving over a hot grill, when I can sit at home and get fat with my family playing video games all day? (Is it the first of the month yet??? I need my check.



Demand four: Free college education.


This should only appeal to the white middle class. Because the 'poor' already get free education through grants. You also, get what you pay for people... and SOMEONE has to pay those teachers, professors, janitors, lawns people, and the nice lady at the admissions office. Don't worry, the people working (who haven't given up and accepted the living wage and video games all day is the way to go) will pick up the tab.



Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.


Windmill automobiles, awesome. The technology isn't there yet people. Look up the Law of Conservation of Energy. You can't make something from nothing and wind, water and solar energy isn't enough to power all you people's video games that are now sitting at home eating government cheese.



Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.


Small bills ok? Because really, that's all that's left after the first 8-10 years of the last 15. Oh, and you can't even have that, because in about the last 3 *50%* more debt was added onto the top of the tab. (2 of those years were controlled exclusively, by a single party too BTW.) Guess what people? These shovel ready jobs? Well, they are for building things... and you know what? When it's built, the job ENDS!


Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.


See above, Oh... and I thought you guys didn't want fossil fuels???? While it's nasty, Nuclear energy is really the only viable alternative to meet the consumption demands of people. (which will go up by one on the very day they pay me $20 an hour to not work.)



Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.


Please. An african american man is president of the United States. Tell me why it is YOU (regardless of race or gender) can't succeed at flipping burgers or something much less 'demanding'.


Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.


Yeah, raising the minimum wage to $20 an hour then allowing anyone to come into the United States.... that will fix unemployment TONS.



Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.


There's a reason people came up with that system of REPRESENTATIVE government. 1, it wasn't possible at the time. 2, they knew that anyone willing to give you $20 an hour to do jack with exactly zero skills would get your vote.



Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.


Sure, that wouldn't make the entire over-inflated world economy collapse.



Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.


Does someone have credit troubles? WTF? Where did that come from?



Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.


Good night! So much for a secret Ballot! Think the people who don't want it will be intimidated, what with their name on a ballot and all? There was a time when unions did something for workers, but now all they do is take my money for dies with nothing in return.



These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

[/B]

Um, no... they won't. See 1-13 above.

[B]

[Irvysan]

How about they just get an fing job like the rest of us and stop being the tree hugging see you next tuesdays that they are, I for one am sick listening to this 99% crap, I AM one of them! The difference is that i get up at 6am and go to work instead of leeching off the state. that is all.

[OoZic]

@CrashSerious

there may be some competing manifestos out there, it's a bit messy who speaks for them. I go for this one because I am not a real economic terrorist like the people who wrote the manifest you quote:

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies. As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known. They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices. They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. They have sold our privacy as a commodity. They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them. They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit. They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, FAULTY BOOKKEEPING, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. * To the people of the world, We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power. Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone. To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal. Join us and make your voices heard! *These grievances are not all-inclusive.

I made some problems I have with the system bold

Source: http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declarati...new-york-city/

************* [ - Post Merged - ] *************

Originally Posted by Irvysan How about they just get an fing job like the rest of us and stop being the tree hugging see you next tuesdays that they are, I for one am sick listening to this 99% crap, I AM one of them! The difference is that i get up at 6am and go to work instead of leeching off the state. that is all.

Why do you think only unemployed people are demonstrating and why do you think all those people leech from the state?

I don't work, I don't need to work and I don't get money from the state and I am not a criminal (only Sony thinks I am). I also don't want to work because I pay a terroristic organization (the Dutch government in my case) this way if I pay taxes because I work. And sure, I can make more money for myself this way but I have more fun with the thought it hurts the government more if they don't get the tax money
(and I have more time to game and have the feeling I am not a slave to the system )

I see some people thinking now how I get my money. Don't worry, I hire out some property, and the income from this is tax free

Edit: found a good picture:

[CrashSerious]

@OoZic ,

Glad to see you back. Hope all is well now.

I don't disagree with your thinking, but there is one difference. You've thought through your choice (I gather) and are prepared to take what that means. A lot of these folks really just want something for nothing.

[OoZic]

Originally Posted by CrashSerious @OoZic , Glad to see you back. Hope all is well now. I don't disagree with your thinking, but there is one difference. You've thought through your choice (I gather) and are prepared to take what that means. A lot of these folks really just want something for nothing.

I'm back in a kind of way, still miss the energy to invest in real PS3 things (haven't played a game in 6 weeks and my progskeet is somewhere but I don't want to search for it...) but thanks for asking

Problem with this kind of things is just like with hacking. We "legal" hackers do it for getting Linux back on our PS3's (for example) and others (ab)use this hard work for free gamez. That is live, if you have success others steal your success for their own benefits.

I and my family have worked hard for what we have and benefit from now. It is nice to retire on the age of 43 Thing is it was all earned before we got Europe, back in the early '90's. Within the economy we have now it wouldn't be possible. The competition of big companies is killing for almost everyone now. I don't like that, to much power to a few companies making other smaller companies impossible. I am more a Yin Yang thinker, there must be a kind of balance in everything. Can't find the balance in the world we have today. Normal greed is good and even healthy, extreme greed is wrong balance for me, making it not good.

Earning a million because of hard work gets my respect, earning millions by re-organizing and fire lots of people to make share-holders happy is just criminal. and that is what executives do today. Come in, get big money, fire people with contracts, hire new people on short term base, get a big 7-figure bonus for their "job" and leave. That is the world today in my vision

[GregoryRasputin]

What Michael Moore says makes sense, i still cant help but think that this will go no where, i have spoken of Ireland, they got better human rights with their protests, Libya and Egypt got rid of their dictators with the protests that they had.

Will these protests in US actually accomplish anything ?


Michael Moore: Occupy Wall Street will only get bigger - YouTube


I guess it is getting more serious, batons are being used now...
Police Club, Pepper Spray #occupywallstreet Protestors @ Wall Street 10.05.11 - YouTube

[KillerBug]

Most of these people are just clueless...here are some quotes from the video:

"There's a lot of people here who realize something is wrong but they don't know what" - that might be the best description of this "movement" that I have found so far!

"They will never be held accountable until the people stand up and beg for justice" - Yeah...great plan...beg the criminals for justice.

"We can telavise you know...um...the protests in the middle east...but we can't...this is happening in our own back yard, you know...and why isn't this on TV...why" - Said by someone standing in front of a news camera, being broadcast to an international TV audience.

"Our politicians no longer represent us, the people" - They never did.

[GregoryRasputin]

This guy, makes quite interesting points against the protesters.
WTF, Occupy wall street group? - YouTube


Quite a good video for the protesters, it shows all the heavy handed tactics by the police.
Occupy Wall Street police vs. demonstrators - YouTube

[OoZic]

Originally Posted by KillerBug Most of these people are just clueless....

Lol, most people who vote for politics are clueless also, that is why we are in this mess
First thing the US of A has to change is their political "2 party" system. Only Republicans and Democrats isn't enough in these days. There must be room for innovating politics and with only this 2 vote choices there is no room for this innovation

This is the way I think democratics should be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy